S2EP6: Modern Day Spirituality for High-Output Leaders ft. Dr. Shubha Vilas

How would you even define modern day spirituality? So many people misinterpreting the stories I feel is very close to my heart which talks about the amalgamation about spirituality. For that let me now welcome Dr. Shiva. Thank you so much for joining us. What kind of strategies can they take away from this book? Anything that naturally grows sustains also in a world which is filled with distractions. Being attentive to yourself the interpretation in Indonesia for Ganesha >> super spiritualist presenting spirituality in a fashionable way both

these extremes won't work for a modern man but how do you react to some of these people who do not fully understand spirituality and call it as feelgood talk >> some enemies you fight some enemies you surrender to how different is that from that let's say a journey of a founder says in the whatever standard a leader Their sex common man follows. >> What was that transition? Move away from a corporate world into the world of spirituality. Hello everyone, welcome to yet another

amazing episode of the innovators and disruptors podcast. I often ponder over a very simple question or a thought that you know we live in a country in India where for thousands of years we have seen life and we have spoken about how to live life in a meaningful way. Yet today we seem to be in a living in a world which is very disconnected with that same essence of how we started out. A lot of our ancient scripts talk about those but we have lost touch with that. The world around us has become more and more complex and today's conversation is going to revolve around something which

I feel is very close to my heart which talks about the amalgamation about spirituality in the modern day world and for that we have someone very very learned who's a scholar. He has taken more than 5,000 sessions across 20 different countries across corporates, startups, educational institutions. He has taught kids to young adults to corporate leaders, startup founders and so on and so forth. And for that, let me now welcome Dr. Shouba. Thank you so much, sir, for joining in. >> Thank you, sir. Very happy to be here on this podcast.

>> My pleasure, sir. Uh, so very interesting question that I had uh for you, you know, and I I think everyone would want to know this, you know, you did your engineering, then you did your masters in patent law, and then you did your PhD, but that was in Talmiran if I'm not wrong. Right. And then you took up a whole different pathway in your life. You left corporate world. What was that transition like? How did you even think about the transition move away from a corporate world into the world of spirituality? >> I think from my um engineering days, I

was looking for something meaningful and something that I would enjoy doing. >> Mhm. So at every phase of life, I kept looking for something that will really excite me, that will add a lot more depth into what I'm able to offer the world and also feel very satisfying to me. >> Mhm. >> So after engineering, uh I took up an engineering job and I was bored after about a couple of months. I felt I needed something more exciting and that's when I found patent law >> and I found that to be a field that was

super exciting. Every day I was filing new patents and it was really thrilling and exciting and then uh during that journey I uh dived deep into spirituality and I found that to be even more exciting. >> Wow. >> So that's when I moved from the field of fat and law. I took up a career break practically and I uh joined a monastery. I lived as a monk for almost 11 years studying the scriptures uh trying to understand life going much deeper into my own life and trying to contribute meaningfully to the world and at that

point in time I found the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Bhagavatam, the Bhagita and I found these have so much depth but not much research has been done in them >> and not just not much research but more than that uh the scriptures have not been presented in a way that a modern man can use and apply in their lives, >> right? >> And I found that to be the most exciting thing that I've ever come across in my life. And I really dived deep down into that. And that's how my journey and transitions happened in the quest for looking for something more meaningful,

in the quest to look for something that I can contribute to the world in a meaningful way and more importantly find more satisfaction into what I was doing on a daily basis. >> That's fantastic. Uh you mentioned a very interesting point which was about modern day spirituality. Uh how would you even define modern day spirituality? What what what does it entail? People know about spirituality. We know we are in a modern day but what is the amalgamation of these two if you are to explain that? >> Traditionally

the process of spirituality and the the practices of spirituality are pretty intense. Hm. Now, how many people in today's world are able to pull out of their society, pull out of their jobs, pull out of their responsibilities and completely focus into spirituality hardly a fraction, >> right? I managed to do it >> and I felt that I can just drop everything and dive deep into spirituality. >> Right? >> And I realized that 99% of the world are not going to be able to do that. So now

if spirituality is going to be relevant for the 99% of the people in the world, it has to be practiced, it has to be presented, it has to be uh molded in a way that those 99% of the people can actually make it a part of the daily lives. >> Right? >> That's the challenge. So if you go to traditionalists who are you know sadhus and who are yogis who are living in traditional monasteries who are living in the Himalayan jungles um their practices of spirituality are so intense >> that a modern man can't even fathom

>> right >> but if you go to some ultraodern pseudo spiritualists >> which are in plenty today >> you will find them watering down their traditions watering down those practices and presenting spirituality in a fashionable way, >> right? >> But in a compromised way, >> right? >> And I felt both these extremes won't work for a modern man because traditional spirituality is too intense for him. But the pseudo spirituality

which is currently trending is not going to give him the depth that he's actually looking for. >> True. >> It's not going to make him feel that I have really gone deep into my spiritual practices. >> Right. because it's very superficial and then I realize that I need to help people through the midway >> where I do not compromise on the teachings of of the scriptures and great saints >> but at the same time I present those teachings in a way that a common man can

apply it while carrying on their responsibilities >> this is exactly what Krishna was trying to do with Arjun in the Bhagita >> when Arjun was a common man of course he was one of the leaders at that time but he was a married person. He had responsibilities. He was a leader among among men at that point. And yet at the same time, he had a deep quest for spirituality. >> In fact, at one point, he was thinking of quitting all his occupational duties and running to the forest and focusing on his spiritual journey.

>> And then Krishna taught him the Gita >> and through the Gita, Krishna taught him the art of balance. >> Wow. >> Finding the midpath, >> right? And I personally feel that I'm just trying to, you know, continue on that journey, help people find the mid path where they can uh not compromise on their spiritual practices, but at the same time live lives that are, you know, ultraodern uh and at the same time find depth in what they're doing. >> Makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much. In fact, one very common aspect that I

have noticed over the years growing up as well, there's one side of it that I've seen in my own personal environment with my parents uh teaching us the meaning of mantras that we recite. On the other hand, whenever we have had some of the Brahman pundits who have come in to our house and performed rituals for a very long period of time, they never explained to us the meaning of the recitations. And u what I've been taught is that you know every time you recite a mantra you should probably have a sulp before doing that right so it allows you to you know kind of push

position power into your thoughts into whatever salp you are taking or you know the idea behind that uh ritual. Uh cut to today now I'm starting to see some of these rituals are being explained more meaningfully. In fact you have been teaching a lot of people. You've taken more than 5,000 sessions across 20 countries and large organizations like Microsofts, Google's, Apples and Samsungs of the world. You've taught a lot of these corporate leaders as well. Do you uh what do they typically these corporate leaders when when they you know you know take these sessions from

you or the learnings from you, what are they initially seeking and what do they actually what are they actually looking for? >> To be frank, a lot of people don't know what they're looking for. I'll I'll tell you something that just happened yesterday. Uh I was invited for a Diwali session uh in a large corporate organization, >> right? >> And it was a pretty large crowd of people who were coming to celebrate Diwali. >> And I was constantly being told they are

coming for fun. >> Make sure that you speak entertaining >> and make sure that they really enjoy it. In fact, till the last moment, I was kept being asked, are you sure it's going to be fun for them? Are you sure, you know, the Gen Z is going to enjoy it? I said, see, I don't know, >> right? >> I'm going to do what I'm best at, >> and then let's see what happens. You know, I'm not going to do something that is not me, >> right, >> just to entertain them, but at the same

time, I have something to offer them which I feel is going to be meaningful and useful to them, >> right? >> Let's see. So then we went I went on the stage and of course before me and after me there was a lot of entertainment you know uh the typical you know Bollywood and stuff all the kind of entertainment that people usually think entertainment is >> right >> and then I came in between >> and then I spoke the story of the Ramayan uncompromisingly

>> wow >> without compromising anything of course I spoke it in a humorous way I spoke it in a way that you know that is meaningful. I added something that made relevance to them. But I spoke Ramayan essentially for about 45 minutes. Pinrop silence. Fantastic. >> The 400 500 people that were there not one moved. >> Absolute pin drop silence. Then the leaders they came to me and they said we never expected this. We never expected that the Gen Z is going to sit in a Ram kata and hear a person speaking straight

Ramayan stories for such a long period of time. >> That's amazing. >> And that's what that's my experience every time, >> right? >> You know, we actually underestimate people. >> We underestimate what people want and what people are looking for, >> right? In fact, we feel that people are looking for something superficial. >> Whereas actually people are looking for something deep. >> Sure.

>> And when we uh you know give people what we feel is the best for them, >> it actually helps them. >> Indeed. I'm sure I actually in fact on this note uh when you said you know people seek something deep uh there was a phase in life where I uh decided to you know join a particular course uh of of an institution uh it was a 5-day course this you know on the third day the guru was imparting that knowledge to us uh I think he was also a corporate leader who had also on the sidelines started imparting growth But I felt that there was a lack of

depth in the conversation. One of the pressing thoughts at that point of time that I had in my head was that you know they kept telling me that you know focus on the present. Don't be agonized by the past and don't be worried about the future. Stay in the present which made a lot of sense to me. And they also gave me another uh fundamental value which was that unless you are keeping yourself happy you cannot keep other people happy around yourself right people you care about. To that I had a very interesting question. And I said and back in the day I used to uh smoke cigarettes. So I

asked this gentleman a question to go with your question saying that sir I smoke cigarettes and it tends to gives me it tends to give me happiness. However my smoking cigarettes tends to give a lot of unhappiness to the family members around me and of course for the right reasons. How is it that you know I should compromise on their uh unhappiness by looking at my happiness because if they are unhappy ideally I will also become unhappy soon. Right. So there was no answer that I got to that which made me wonder how many of the people are truly giving the right

guidance you know uh and I'll bring another analogy today there's a lot of work going on everyone is almost I mean a lot of people that we see are in professional lives they're leading a lot of stressful lives could you talk about two metrics when I say metrics I'm talking about business is measured by metrics but spiritual growth we need to is there any way In the first place, can we measure growth and progress in the spiritual journey? If so, what would be two instinctive areas, attributes that you would suggest people should look at and measure whether they're growing in

the spiritual journeys as well? The first the most important thing that you should look for which is a very clear measurement or yard stick to figure out whether you're growing in your spiritual journey or no is your ability to respond to situations >> whether it's good and bad. A lot of us go through many situations in our life. Some of them are happy situations. Some of them are sad. Some of them are setbacks. Some of them are extreme uh degrees of success. How we respond to each of these situations determines what is your

depth. >> Yeah. Right. >> Somebody who is spiritually evolved, their ability to react and respond to situations is much different from somebody who is shallow. >> Makes sense. Just like I had a friend who was traveling in a train >> uh to reach a particular destination and while he was on the train there's some a passenger he said we just randomly speaking to him telling him that do you know there was a big fire accident in a factory in Bandra >> massive fire going on

>> he said yeah I know it's my factory and he's going he's going to attend to the fire in his own factory everybody's talking about it >> and this man is cool the guy was shocked. >> He said, "How are you so cool in spite of knowing that your factory is on fire? Your whole life life's earnings." >> This man said, "What will I do by jumping around in stress? When I go there, I'll figure it out." >> Right? >> Right now, even if I jump around, I'm not going to be able to do solve a

problem. >> Right? And this man he said I learned these teachings from my practice of spirituality and has taught me to remain grounded in such situations of life. That's exactly what the first yard stick to measure your own spiritual progresses. There may be some some people who are practicing spirituality for 10 years, 20 years, but when they get into situations which are difficult >> or even when they get into situations which are very joyful, >> right? >> The way people react is not exactly uh

dignified or graceful, right? >> True. >> So this is the first yard stick in my in my opinion. The second yard stick which uh signifies that you have made a significant progress in your spiritual journey is that you know the value of solitude. You know the value of being able to derive joy from within and not depend on external sources for joy. >> Right? >> A lot of people depend on things. >> If I buy this particular car, I'll be happy. If I buy this particular gadget,

I'll be happy. If I have this set of clothes, I'll be happy. Or they depend on people, >> right? >> If I have this person in my in my h in my life, I'll be happy. If I have these kind of friendships, I'll be happy. A lot of factors that we are uh you know determining as the yard sticks for happiness is based on externals. But a spiritually evolved person finds joy within and that's the concept of atmaarama. The word atma Ram means atma means the self

>> and Rama means pleasure. The one who seeks pleasure from within. >> And for such a person there's no question of loneliness because for him in solitude he deres great pleasure, great confidence, great inspiration and superb growth. Makes a lot of sense. Amazing. These are two very interesting uh perspectives or attributes that you have shared uh for spiritual growth and journey. So that's that's very interesting. Uh but you have been teaching uh these different attributes and spiritual modern day spiritual uh learnings to people uh from

various age groups. This could be very early kids, young adults, grown-ups, leaders etc. How do you teach the same things in different formats for different age groups? I personally feel the one thread that connects all age groups is stories >> and I uh personally have been benefited a lot by stories from my childhood I've been uh hearing reading learning stories and I learn best through stories >> and I strongly feel that every age group whether you're telling a story to a small child or you're telling it to a story to a grown-up adult they are very

focused >> right >> why do you think you know the movie industry is doing so well because it's All stories, >> right? >> Why do you think people are reading so many books? Because it's all stories >> narrated in a way that you can learn from them. >> True. >> The best stories are those that leave a deep impact in in you much after they are told. >> So when I tell stories, I tell stories

according to the age group, according to the mindset, according to the intelligence level, according to the you know the the audience that is in front of me, right? and I try to make the stories relevant to their lives. >> So I I may tell the same story to a small child or to to a corporate giant but the same story has a different type of impact on different audiences >> based on how you speak it out, what kind of insights you add into it. For a small child, they don't really need insights. They're looking for entertainment. They're looking for something that just

you know makes them smile you know but for somebody who is uh you know intellectually oriented >> they're looking for deeper insights from the same story >> right >> and that is the way I feel I can bridge gaps >> makes sense >> you know and wherever I've spoken whichever types of audiences I've spoken um this format really helps >> people fall asleep when you speak you know philosophy and concepts you know too much uh but when you tell stories

everyone's awake Fantastic. I think and and I've I've purchased a few of your books for my own kid as well. So very excited about uh you know how you're simplifying it as well as making it so relevant for kids to understand the value behind a lot of these stories. And that brings me to a very interesting perspective too. A lot of uh stories in their traditional form form factors while very very meaningful are misinterpreted today in today's day and age. And my assumption is that a lot of your books today breaks it down and makes it relevant in today's day and age

for people to really understand of how it happened as against the value systems that were being thought about let's say 30 to 50 years ago as well. >> Thank you for asking this question because this is the very reason I started writing in the first place. >> Okay. because I saw so many people misinterpreting the stories, >> the scriptures, Brahma and Mahabharat, all our scriptures for that matter. Um, and I found that people taking liberty in misinterpreting the characters, the psychology behind the characters, the story itself and the interpretation of

the story. And I found that to be something that deeply hurt me. Uh because you cannot misinterpret characters and stories that are historical. >> Right? >> Just like uh if I have to depict Mahatma Gandhi wearing jeans, >> it's not going to be right >> you know because he is a person, >> right? >> And he has some value systems, he has some thought processes, he has some preferences and naturally I need to be respectful of them.

>> Very true. So if I call somebody like Bat who is called a dharmatma throughout the you know scriptures as a flirt that's not at all modernization that is absolutely distortion >> and there are you know very famous authors who are doing that >> right >> uh if I um you know convey a thought that uh Lord Ganesh who is supposed to be the most you know amazing personality that he is having a particular form >> because you know he's cursed >> because of some sin that he has done in the past

>> right >> now that is not an interpretation >> right >> it's absolutely misinterpretation >> and I'm giving these examples these are examples that are there in uh books written by modern authors >> right >> and widely circulated in India >> right I'm not taking names but whoever have read them they will know what I'm talking about >> right >> but this is what is called as

misinterpretation >> right >> so there is a difference between presenting the scriptures in a relevant way and twisting the scriptures >> to make them relevant or to make them modernized >> so there is no problem in adapting >> there is no problem in adapting a scripture or a story to present that scripture or or the story in a modern context for a modern audience, >> right? >> As long as I'm not interpreting the the psychology behind those characters or

rather misinterpreting, I would say >> and I'm not changing the story line itself to suit my need. >> I'm not doing that. Then it's fine. >> Makes sense. And I'm presenting the sto the the story in a authorized manner which is what is called parumpara. >> Right. >> Right. I'm not deviating from what the the rishi darian is. Rishi daran means the original author who has written as walmiki or or vasdev you know many of these great personalities paras all of these personalities they have a certain vision

>> based on which they write these scriptures >> right >> it's called rishi daran >> and these are visions that are not their own. It is given to them by God. >> And that's what make these books as timeless. >> Right? >> So I have no authority to misinterpret that vision. >> I keep that vision but I can present that vision in a modern context. >> Makes a lot of sense. >> That is allowed and that is in fact

needed. But if I distort the vision itself and if I distort the original rishi daran itself then it's you know definitely something that is uh that is disturbing and that is the that is the very reason I began writing in the first place. >> Fantastic. No that's that's amazing. In fact uh you see that uh it's it's historically seen in so many different contexts. uh very early in my I mean a few years ago very early in my marriage I went to Bali and I saw Ganesha's avar there in a warrior form factor right he was not

shown as the benevolent kind god that we typically see of him his expressions etc in India in Indonesia in Bali he had weapons in his hand he had anger on his face so for me I've heard different you perceptions or interpretations of different stories and it's very interesting for me to now dive deeper into some of these more from a learning standpoint when when as a learner people are listening to your stories. Uh you have been a faculty at various ITMS nurse and others. Uh how do students what do they go back with when when they are part of these uh learning sessions

with you? What do they at the end of these learning sessions go back with? I try my best to help youngsters find a context in their life. >> So usually every youngster is struggling with with uh selfidentity. That is one of the first things that they are really struggling with. A lot of youngsters don't know who they are, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are. A lot of them are strugg struggling to make their weaknesses into their strengths. Whenever I teach in many of these B schools, I always start my

courses by helping them develop a healthy self-image. >> That is where I begin >> because if they don't have a relationship with themselves >> which is healthy, how are they going to have a relationship with others >> and then how are they going to lead others? So if you really want to begin a journey of self-development, >> it always begins with a with a journey of correcting your own self-image, >> developing the right self-image, the right understanding of who you are. >> 90% of our problems in life are simply

because we don't know who we are. >> We're simply trying to fit in and try to be somebody else. >> And the more you're going to be somebody else, the more miserable you're going to be, >> right? And therefore I uh try to uh help youngsters look at themselves re-evaluate you know what is really cool what is uh the right understanding of a healthy self-image or what is the meaning of accepting themselves with their strengths and weaknesses >> and then falling in love with themselves and then contributing something

meaningfully with whatever gifts God has given them. >> Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I mean uh it it brings you back to the fundamental question who are you right and more more more often than people do not know how to answer that. Uh very fascinating in fact uh in your books you have also spoken about in your sessions you've spoken about this that you know there are various techniques with which you react to situations differently. Is there a quick ritual that someone can do when they are in a position which is not make which is not letting them be calm

or composed? Could there be a quick 10-minute ritual that they can potentially do to help them uh you know reduce that anxiety at that point in time and be in a more composed state. The body and the mind are interconnected. >> When your mind is stressed out, when you are in anxiety, you are getting angry, very agitated mentally, >> you may not be able to stop that immediately. M >> so whenever you are in a situation where there's a lot of mental agitation

there's no calmness in the mind first start physically there are some things that we can do physically that will immediately have an effect in your mind >> okay and something as simple as washing your face with cold water >> just splashing cold water on your face >> instantly has major difference psychologically in your mind. M >> so it is said the moment cold water splashes on your face >> physically it's a physical act >> right >> but that affects your psychological

state of mind >> and immediately you calm down >> it's not even after 5 minutes instantly >> you calm down so this is one of the practices that ancient uh you know sages have always been doing >> the simple act of cold water bath >> what is a cold water bath Right? >> It's simply immersing yourself in cold water so that the rajas and tamas that is there built up with anger >> the you know there's a lot of rajagun tamagun that builds up with certain emotions >> right

>> the moment you enter into cold water it gets converted into satwa >> and your mind becomes peaceful instantly after that >> so this is one thing that you could do >> and another thing that you could do which if you not able to have a cold water bath if you're not able to wash your face you Now if you're in situation like that a very powerful way is breathing. >> The quality of your breath and the depth of your breath also directly controls the state of your mind. >> Right?

>> And that is why breathing is considered to be such an essential part of spirituality. Without knowing breathing you cannot chant. >> Without knowing breathing you cannot chant mantras. >> Right? Without without you know knowing breathing you cannot chant japa. Without knowing breathing you cannot sing bayans. You know all of it is connected to breathing because breath is called prana. >> It's the foundational airs of the body and with the quality of your breathing

you can actually control the quality of your mind's agitations you know. So if you are in a state of agitation, you can simply sit down and take some very deep breath. >> Deep breathing pranayam. These deep breathing exercises actually help a lot with psychological uh effects. In fact, before you get on a stage, >> if you're having stage fright, >> just take three deep breaths. >> Your stage fright will just disappear. You'll be able to face the audience with a much greater confidence and you'll be able to stand there without shivering

without feeling all those you know jitters basically and that is how the body impacts the mind. >> Makes a lot of sense. >> If your mind is agitated simply work on your body and if your body is agitated work on your mind. >> No that's amazing. In fact for people who are listening to us the audience members I think these are two very straightforward hacks you don't need to understand necessarily and ideally you should about rajasurik tamik and satic uh you know personas but even if you don't understand that following these

two steps makes life so much better. uh one is your breath control and how do you understand the whole aspect of breathing practicing that in yoga also we do that very often and then uh of course the second is taking bath with cold water uh can help you people talk about longevity as well associated with cold water right so I'm assuming there's a lot of that inculcated and are ancient science which is not being translated effectively as the right meaning to the current day world >> correct absolutely there are so many so many effects of cold water

>> amazing Uh so your book undefeable Krishna you know you have you know more often than not we have known Krishna as the charity charity and you have mentioned that as well that you know the whole uh you know explanation of the wisdom that he gave to Arjun is what comes into Bhagat Gita but you have spoken about undefeated in in your book in the recent book that you've written you've spoken about Krishna as a eternal guide and specifically on strategy now currently U in the modern day world as well you see a lot of uh wartime situations for founders of companies for

leaders of companies. What kind of strategies can they take away from this book and how will they impact them? Krishna is a master at strategy. um by studying his life and his teachings every single person can be benefited immensely. Um one of the reasons Krishna comes into this world is to actually set an example. Krishna says in the Gita whatever standard a leader sets common man follows. M so from a foundational value system and from the point of view of leadership >> uh every single story that is associated

with Krishna and the Mahabharat are powerful lessons >> the leaders can learn how to navigate their lives. For example, when Jarasandha attacked Krishna Matura >> 17 times, Krishna fought back. Every time he fought back >> and on the 18th time Krishna ran away from the war. He didn't fight with Jarasan. He just ran away. >> Now a lot of people don't understand what Krishna did >> and they don't understand why Krishna did that. >> All of us we are fighting many wars,

>> right? And every war we try to fight to win, >> right? >> There are some wars you don't need to win. >> You just need to leave those wars. You have to pick up your fights. What is worth fighting? There are some wars that are not worth fighting at all. Drop them. And when Krishna was attacked by Jarasandha the 18th time, he was attacked from two sides. >> Attack from Jarasandra from one side and Kallayan from another side. Krishna

instead of fighting the wars he just ran away >> and when Krishna ran away Kalawan followed him >> and Krishna ran into a cave >> in which there was a king named much sleeping >> and when you know Kalawan chased Krishna and he saw much sleeping there his back was towards him >> so he didn't see who it was he just assumed it is Krishna >> because Krishna ran into that cave Krishna was hiding on one side >> and this guy went and kicked Much

thinking it is Krishna >> and Muchukunda woke up and stared at Kalawa and burned him down to ashes because much had a bo >> that if anybody wakes him up from his sleep he will burn down that person to ashes and Krishna knew that >> Krishna didn't have to fight against Kalawan to win against him >> he just had to bring Kalan to Mjugunda and automatically Kalan died >> so not all battles we have to fight ourselves right >> there are some battles we just have to you know um what do you call it navigate

them towards some other you know sources >> right >> because not all wars we are going to win on our own merit or our own strength there are some wars we just have to move to a to another direction and somebody else can take care of it right that's what is called delegation basically >> so uh for every single situation in life there is a story >> that Krishna teaches through his own life. >> For example, when the Pandavas were attacked by the Naranastra, there was a very powerful weapon called

Naranastra >> and the Pandavas had no idea how to counteract it. >> Krishna told all of them, "Drop all your weapons and lie down on the ground." M >> so all the pandas just drew their weapons and we were lying on the ground and Krishna he stood up and he received the naranas on his chest and the naranas turned into a beautiful garland and the pandas are very confused they said what just happened can you explain >> and Krishna explained to them the only way to counteract the naranastra is by falling flat in front of it

there are some problems you shouldn't fight against you just surrender to those problems You should become humble in front of those problems. >> And those problems don't affect you. >> Right? >> We want to fight against every problem. >> We want to solve every problem >> because not all problems are meant to be solved. >> Makes sense. >> A lot of them are meant to be tolerated. >> A lot of them are meant to be neglected. >> Very few of them you actually can solve.

>> Right? >> So which are the ones that you're supposed to fight and which is a fight you're supposed to give up and become humble in front of? we can learn from Krishna >> makes a lot of sense >> so many amazing stories from and every single story in Krishna's life there is a wisdom that we can learn in modern lives especially founders who are running uh you know startups and corporate organizations >> and are in a journey where every day is a fight

>> right >> kuruketra is a parallel to today's world >> true very true >> every single day there's a different enemy coming >> right >> and just like every startup founder faces different type of obstacles a different type of challenges on on a daily basis. What works one day will not work the second day. Every day you need a new strategy to fight against your enemy. Some enemies you fight, some enemies you surrender to. >> And that's how we win the modern battles

of life. >> Amazing. That's that's so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that perspective. So uh you know so that is a very interesting perspective uh you have shared through Mahabharat, through Bhagat Gita, through uh Krishna specifically. Now if you move to another book of yours which is into Ramayana uh the game of life that's been a bestseller. What are some obvious uh you know takeaways from that book you know what should people read looking forward to in from from that book as well. >> You know the the series Ramayan the game

of life I named it >> uh after a lot of thought. >> Okay. I called it Ramayan, the game of life >> because I strongly felt that the Ramayan actually can help us play the game of our life better. >> Okay, >> every every game has some rules, right? >> So if you know the rules well, you can play the game well. >> But unfortunately, when we are living life and you're playing the game of life, most of us don't even know what the rules are.

>> True. Therefore, Ramayan teaches us uh essential rules for life >> through the stories of of Lord Ram. And as we follow the the story of the Ramayan, we get to learn how we can navigate the game of our life better. And um when you take life as a game, >> it's more enjoyable. >> A lot of people suffer life. >> But those who understand life is a game, >> they learn to enjoy life, >> right? You know all players who play to win >> they are miserable >> but players who play because they enjoy

the game >> they really do well >> right >> and win or loss is a part of life right but first you should know how to play the game and how you should enjoy the game >> makes sense >> through the Ramayan you'll find in every part of the Ramayan there are such amazing stories where Ram is teaching us the psychology that we need to maintain to live a life of dignity and grace. >> Through the story of the Ramayan, you find every single episode Ram is giving

us perspectives how we can look at the similar situation that comes into our life. Whether it is you know looking at the way we handle relatives who are you know agnostic sometimes >> or how we handle sibling rivalry you know Laxshman and Bhat at some point Lakshman really felt bat was responsible for all the problems >> and then Ram handled it so beautifully. >> He helped Laxshman see bat in a totally different perspective. >> Very true. >> Um Kaikai who was actually responsible for all the mess that happened in

Aayodhya. The way Ram handled her is just so amazing. Not one single time in those 14 years and afterwards he ever blamed her. >> She was dying of guilt. >> Rah never told her ever that you were wrong. >> But she was so much feeling the responsibility. >> If Ram had blamed her, she wouldn't feel that kind of guilt. >> Probably. Yes. So Ram helps us navigate complicated, delicate situations of life through such deep amazing and very profound ways of looking at life from a

higher perspective. >> So Ramayan sets us such a standard of what it means to be a good human being. And when we study the Ramayan, of course the benchmark is too high. But if only we have a benchmark that is so high, we'll get anywhere close by close by. Right. And that's what I you know teach through the series called Raman the game of life. The entire uh story of Ramayan is written in a way that through the story you can apply the teachings of Raman in your life. >> Makes a lot of sense sir. uh that that brings me to another very interesting

question that I think uh is going to superbly helpful for founders uh corporate leaders etc as well specifically founders and their own start employees in the startup right uh if let's say all of them learn from you and apply that learnings those learnings for 30 days what are some of the obvious changes or metrics that you would see before and after for for you know doing these practices for 30 is I personally feel it will give people spirituality and any kind of spiritual practices and understanding the right mindset

>> gives people perspectives for life. That is the first thing that happens. >> Uh you get an alternative way of looking at life itself. >> Right? >> Alternative way of looking at the way you make decisions, >> alternative way of looking at problems. >> That's the first thing. >> The second thing is the way you manage your time. M >> spirituality actually helps us understand time in a totally different uh box. >> Okay.

>> Spirituality actually helps us understand that time is actually God. Krishna says in the Gita calls me he says I am time. >> You know how how many of us actually look as look at time as God. >> Because in in reality most of us are unconscious of time. Spirituality helps us become conscious of every moment because it's a moment that'll never come back. So we begin to value time better. >> The third thing that happens when one deeply understands these concepts that we're talking about is the way you connect with other people.

>> Your relationships with people becomes much more powerful and much more deeper because you're not looking at them as at a superficial level but you're looking at them at a much deeper level. the soul connect basically right and uh I really emphasize a lot on relationships because whatever we achieve in our life is based on who we are connected with >> right >> a human being becomes an average of five people that he associates with the most >> right >> so if you are associating with five really you know not so uh you know deep

people you become the average of those five. Now uh whom do you want to become the average of? Which are those five people that you want to become an average of? >> You have to really think deeply. >> Makes sense. >> And if you don't choose those five people who are you know most people surround themselves especially you know um leaders surround themselves with weak people >> because they feel that they feel stronger among those weak people >> without realizing that they are going to

become an average of those five. >> Makes sense. And that is why it is very important to surround yourself with powerful people because you become the average of those five powerful people. It's something much much more powerful than what you will ever become on your own. Basically, >> right? >> These these are three things that I can immediately think of that can that can have a deeper impact on people's lives. And the fourth probably the most important thing is you'll start valuing uh spiritual practices more deeply

>> because um how much can we do based on our own intelligence right like say for example >> um if you are thinking of an idea for a startup >> or you're thinking of a technology idea you're thinking of a you know bookw writing idea whatever ideas you're thinking of >> what is the guarantee by thinking you'll get those ideas. Is there a guarantee that by just sitting and thinking you'll get those ideas? No. Ideas don't don't come by thinking. They just come when you

deserve them, when you invoke them. Basically, >> Krishna says in the Gita, he he speaks a very beautiful and a powerful thought. He says he says he says when someone worships me with love. >> That means we're talking about chanting God's name. We're talking about connecting with God. We're talking about doing some spiritual practice with love, >> with depth, with affection. When you do that, he says I give you the intelligence.

>> The dami means I give. Buddhi means I give you the intelligence. >> Every person who is looking for ideas here is a secret in the Gita. The verse in the Gita Krishna is saying I am ready to give you ideas. >> Provided you do you do this. >> Makes sense. >> Spirituality is one science which you practice. You will never fall short of ideas. You will never fall short of innovation. >> You will never fall short of creativity. And some of the very powerful spiritual people

>> are also some of the most creative people in the world. >> Makes a lot of sense. >> So I do a yearly mentorship program where I mentor uh a group of 30 individuals >> you know between mid-level top level management >> for a period of one year >> where I train them on all these qualities. How they can bring a balance in their life. >> How they can look at their lives in a more uh deeper sense than just a superficial sense. How they can find

their purpose in life. How they can manage their time better. How they can develop a healthy self-image. How they can actually understand themselves and their relationships in a much better framework. How they make can make better decisions in their life. >> So all of these things I train them for a period of one whole year a set of 30 people. Right? >> I've been doing this for last several years now. handpicked 30 people for one full year. Every week I give them time >> and I try to help them become a better

individual personally and also professionally. >> Wow. What's the process of applying for one if someone wants to be a part of those 30? >> I'll send you the form for it. Okay. >> So, usually I start the course in Jan. So, Jan to December is when I do this course every year basically. >> Okay. I'll definitely one apply second I will I think also share this information with the audience you know for people to at least give give a shot >> most welcome >> thank you uh one practical uh guidance

on this uh a lot of people today's day and age also suffer suffer with burnout uh you have mentioned about reactivity you have mentioned about calm and composure uh people tend to be too anxious and try to achieve a lot you've spoken about this as well that You know, people always try to win. Instead of enjoying the game, they try to win the game. And I'm assuming that leads to burnouts. What are some uh you know, learnings that you would want to share with people to make sure that they avoid going through burnouts?

>> The most important thing that is needed for anyone to avoid going through burnouts is every single day find some time for yourself. H >> when a well keeps giving giving giving giving water >> at one point it dries up every well has to spend some time filling up >> and then giving out >> right >> we as human beings the way we fill up >> is when we are alone doing something that nourishes us personally. M >> unfortunately today most people seek

nourishment in movies in you know scrolling on the social media >> right >> they feel that is what is you know decreasing the stress >> without realizing that actually subtly increasing the stress >> interesting >> it is not helping you relax >> it is actually helping you move faster towards your burnout >> wow okay >> spirituality teaches us the best way to relax. If you spend time with yourself,

>> doing practices that are going to connect you with your inner self and with God, >> that is when you emerge out that is filling up >> the well, >> right? >> So, uh in fact, Lord Ram tells Bat this. He tells every day in the morning, you should get up early in the morning and spend some time with yourself. So if every single day if a if if a person spends at least 15 minutes every day either reading some book which is deep

>> I'm not talking about fiction stories I'm talking about deep books >> that have you know real depth in them like the scriptures like the Gita or the Bhagwat any of these scriptures that have depth in them the Ramayan the Mahabharat you know second is if you can spend some time doing meditation any form of meditation like japa meditation or mantra meditation meditation or you know um closing your eyes and doing yogic meditation any of these meditations >> going out for walks in nature >> where you don't have your gadgets with

you you are with yourself and with nature >> fourth write things that really come out from your heart some form of journaling >> where you can express yourself express your emotions express gratitude towards what you have experienced in your life M >> um fifth, have deep meaningful conversations with people. Not talking about useless talks, not talking about politics, not talking about movies, not talking about gossip of about people, but talking about deeper subjects that really matter to you. If anyone can do these five things, one of these five

things >> every day for at least 15 minutes to an hour, >> it will have a massive impact >> on their own life and will ensure that they don't burn out and they're filling up their well again and again. >> Fantastic. Those are some amazing pointers, five different points uh which which you know everyone can do it uh proponently every morning as well like you mentioned and bringing those changes can really avoid burnout. So that's a fantastic set of points that I think people should follow. Uh I also want to

go into very different tangents. You've spoken a lot about learnings. Uh but I also want to go in a different tangent of the learnings itself. You've taught at various colleges and schools and institutions across the globe including the likes of MIT in Boston, Dresden in Germany, WITS, Johannesburg and many of the IITs etc. as well. Has there been a fundamental difference in terms of the application and the absorption uh in an environment which is in US versus Europe versus India? >> Human beings are the same everywhere. >> Their concerns are the same everywhere.

>> Okay. >> And yes, their styles may be different. >> Mhm. >> And their cultures may be different, but in essence >> the fears that they have, they all the same. M >> the uh aspirations that they have they all the same >> and um the feelings that they have the emotions that they have they all the same >> right >> I personally feel that at that level >> there is commonality

and at that level you know when we teach there is uh absolutely great acceptance makes a lot of sense thank you uh there are also a lot of people who are very critical of spirituality and many of uh counter that by saying that this is a feel-good talk. Probably they don't understand the depth of spirituality. But how do you react to some of these people uh or you know critics who do not fully understand spirituality and call it as feel-good talk? Yes, they are right to a great extent because many of the spiritualists

>> are doing feel good talks. >> Okay, >> because the spirituality itself is at multiple levels. M >> so if you if you find a spiritualists who are giving you knowledge at that level >> it will feel like a feelood talk. >> Got it. >> But then if you really want to go deeper >> you connect with the same person or with others >> who can help you go deeper. >> Got it. >> Initially it has to begin with a feelood

talk. >> But it doesn't end with a feelood talk. >> Right. >> The feelood talk will only inspire you to start walking on that path. >> Makes sense. But if the feelood talk uh is pushing you to stay on that same path then it's not it's it's it's like actually defeated the purpose of the of that feelood talk itself. >> Makes sense. >> So I would say that feel good talks are good >> as bridges that help people take the courage

>> to put the first step on the bridge. >> Got it. Makes a lot of sense. >> And then you walk on that bridge to move towards a path which is much much deeper. >> Got it. Thank you so much. That's that's very enlightening. Uh and is there also a distinguishing line uh where one if let's say in the modern world someone who practices spirituality may be completely healed by spirituality or do they sometimes need therapist? Is there a line there differentiating them or someone doesn't need a therapist? Spirituality alone can heal them fully.

See for spirituality to act and transform your life it takes some time >> right >> but there might be situations of emergency >> when suppose there is somebody who is a schizophrenic patient >> somebody who is going through certain levels of hallucination >> and you know these are very critical cases >> where you don't have time at hand >> for the process to work >> right

>> the process will work But it needs certain time for transformation to happen. But if you are going through an emergency situation, it is important to consult a therapist. It's important to consult some psychologist who will help you at least to get to a point of stability. >> Makes sense? >> Where see therapy is not long-term solution. >> No clinical psychologist will say that therapy is the long-term solution to problems in life. >> It's an emergency.

>> Right? >> Right now you're going through an emergency. take the help and get stable and once you're stable look for something longterm >> and that's where spirituality can really help you. Makes a lot of sense on that follow-up question you talk about long-term. So there is a patience and persistence required in the spiritual journey. How different is that from that let's say a journey of a founder. See anyone who plants a tree >> will get fruits after many years >> right? Whether it is uh planting a mango

tree, a sapling of a mango tree to get for it to give fruits takes 15 years, >> right? >> Or whe whether it's a startup founder who is laying uh you know some foundation for a for an organization and then by the time he actually reaps the fruits it'll be a couple of years or whether it is a spiritualist who's putting the seed you know which is which is going to you know grow into something very beautiful. Each of them requires patience >> and anything that naturally grows sustains also for a longer duration of

time. >> Point. Yes sir. No completely completely aligned. That's a fantastic point and fantastic message for a lot of people in the audience because a lot of people do tend to take shortcuts. They're hoping for faster rewards and uh that's that's such a brilliant point right uh about sustaining building something naturally would lead to a lot more sustainable growth uh in the long run. So thank you so much. So on that uh note I do want to ask you get into a very different segment which is rapid fire. No conversation is complete without a rapid

fire. So we'll ask you a few more questions and uh you know with short answers short question short short answer for uh will India teach modern day spirituality to the world in the next decade? >> 100%. >> Fantastic. If you could finish this line. A founder or a leader is successful when >> when he is empathetic towards people that help him >> grow when he understands his customers and his you know end consumers well. >> Mhm.

>> And when he gives back to society. >> Fantastic. A verse or story you return to life when life feels noisy. This is a verse from the Bhagita. Mhm. >> Which actually gives a very beautiful analogy. It talks about how all the rivers flow into an ocean. >> But the ocean is so deep the ocean never floods over. Similarly, hundreds of desires that flood into the mind. If the mind is shallow like a puddle, it will flood over. The puddle loses existence. >> But if the mind is deep like an ocean, it will not get affected at all. >> Fantastic.

one belief you changed your mind uh about recently. >> One belief that I changed my mind about recently. Yes, I would say I changed my mind about how externals um don't matter. M >> you know um the way I used to couple of years back at least the way I used to dress up you know >> I used to wear I always wore traditional clothes for decades for more than more than 12 years >> but then I realized that if I have to be uh connecting with modern people with

people in the modern world >> uh sometimes your clothes become a barrier you know for a person to converse with you for a person to be able to open up to you, >> right? And sometimes that becomes you know a lot of people tend to feel that if somebody is wearing you know traditional dotiki korta tilak and all that they feel this person is unapproachable to me >> he's in a different world you know >> and uh I strongly believe in traditions and I I love wearing doi I love that's my comfort clothes practically you know

but then I started realizing that if I'm I'm I need to be with people I need to connect with people >> I need to really start looking them connecting with them so that you know the conversation can begin. >> Makes sense. So that I slowly help them change their belief systems about what you know what is traditional and what you know uh dohiki kuta is >> true >> and I find that uh you know that really beautiful I struggled with it for quite some time honestly you know I really didn't feel comfortable wearing regular

clothes but then I realized that if this is a service >> you know and it's actually going to help people connect with me better I said you know I I don't mind doing that service um and uh if that can help a lot more people accept traditional clothes, you know, and accept the uh the path of spirituality and accept the connection with God, so be it. >> That's a fantastic thought. Thank you so much. Uh a book that you would gift or recommend the most and why? Um there's a book that I wrote called Openeyed Meditations

>> and that's one of the books that I strongly feel is one of my best books. I have you know gifted it to hundreds of people and hundreds of people have gifted it to hundreds of other people you know >> because that book has really impacted um thousands of lives literally. >> Wow. >> And I it's a book I highly recommend. >> We'll definitely do that. So that's the next book that I'm reading now. a question uh you ask a struggling founder when you are teaching or imparting knowledge to them or wisdom to them.

>> What is your purpose? >> Why do you do what you do? >> Makes a lot of sense. One thing you wish every 20 year old learned about attention. >> Attention is the most valuable commodity in the world. What you give attention to determines what is your um you know what is your most valuable commodity. >> People who give attention to money for them that's the most valuable thing. But people who give attention to screens that's their most valuable commodity.

And people who give attention to themselves they realize that they are their own the best assets. Basically >> um in a world which is filled with distractions being attentive to yourself and to your own needs and to your own interests and your own concerns is rare. And the most amazing thing is that when you are attentive to yourself, you can be attentive to others more. >> Got it. That's a fantastic uh perspective. Thank you so much for sharing that. One last question. In the modern day spiritual world, how would

you define innovation in one word? >> Innovation in one word is creativity which is empowering and blessed. Fantastic. Thank you so much. These were some eyeopening perspectives for me as well and I'm sure for a lot of people in the audience uh who would eventually want to reach out to you as well for some guidance and learn from you. I'm so glad that you know you were able to take out time and have this conversation with

us because this is going to help a lot of people out there at least open their minds to thinking about how they should get or apply spirituality in the current modern day world. And again big big thank you for taking our time. >> Thank you very much. very happy and grateful to be here and hopefully through this podcast we will be able to touch a lot more lives and some of them hopefully will get transformed and look at spirituality at a more serious lens. >> We will definitely do that. Thank you so much.