Ep1: Living to 100: India’s Longevity Moment ft. Subhendu Panigrahi

Hi Shubedu. So good to have you here man. So uh we've known each other for a while >> and I thought that you know we should record a conversation together because you're building something very exciting. longevity the the area that I wanted to focus on today is uh a very interesting area that I wanted to tap into and for that welcome to founders corner a new format that we have started and uh I want to talk to you and get a lot of insights from you in terms of what you're building how you're building that and go a little deeper into and uh into

stackable content of sorts uh to understand what longevity is all about keeping in mind the Indian audiences right because uh I think In US it's been a while that people are talking about longevity. >> Yeah. >> A few years now. Uh but but uh from an Indian context standpoint our DNA construct is very different. The way we approach problems is very different. And uh I think the kind of lifestyle changes that we probably need to bring in with everything in our surroundings also going to be very very different. For

that I thought let's have this chat. >> But let's start with a very simple and obvious thing. You're building Foxo. What is Fox? So who is it for? >> Yeah, first of all, thanks for getting me into the show. I exactly we know each other for almost a decade probably, right? >> And good fun catching up again. >> Uh so coming back to the question, right? What is Foxo? Elevator pitch. The elevator pitch is that we're building longevity system for Indians, >> right? >> So I'll obviously go to what is

longevity? But the way we built is it's not just an app or or a service. It's a combination of humans and digital ecosystem which enables people to be on the longevity path. Right? So that's why we call ourselves as longevity system for Indians. >> Makes sense. And what exactly who exactly is it for? I mean what's the outcome that you're driving for Indians in that context? >> So basically let me define what is longevity. So what is longevity is that >> it's nothing but to be at the peak of

your health. M >> what you were you and me were back in our 20ies right young we were like having fun we're energetic we always on top of things right >> can you be like that for as long as possible >> when you're 50 when you're 60 when you're 70 >> can you die young >> that's what longevity is >> makes a lot of sense that's a that's a fantastic way of putting it can you die young it's not that you're dying early >> but you're dying young in terms of your

health quotient being very high even at the time of your death right so that That's absolutely >> uh in fact uh you know I do want to get into deeper into this as well. uh when you started Fox you must have taken some contrarian bet against what most people say about longevity in India right could you talk to us a little bit about what that contrarian bet was all about like for example uh you know more often than not and I think we also discussed this in the past the way medication works today in India or healthare system works at

large in India is that you know you don't you don't focus on predictive much you focus on the existing ailments and how to deal with that. Right. And that's why you have more prescription drugs than supplements. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Pill for an ill. >> Pill for an ill. Perfect. So how was there a very contrarian bet that you came into being and then you said that you know let's start focusing with that. >> Yeah. That's it's a brilliant question actually. In fact you correctly

mentioned right the way current healthcare works is that you have a disease you go there the the insurance industry understand the disease >> the hospitals understand the disease so you are termed as a diabetic person or you're termed as a hyper tension uh patient right and then they have pills and then they can put it's called it's part of ICD right international port for diseases right >> and then the insurance can do the claim and everything right that's how the industry works >> but the bet that I took right the whole

hypothesis that I had when I wanted to do Foxo which I also used to convince my investors and my co-founders >> that nobody's healthy. >> You just don't know it yet. >> Yeah. >> Right. So the >> the heart attack that happened to somebody did not happen overnight. It was brewing for almost 10 years or 15 years. Right. >> The cancer that came fourth stage was not there suddenly. >> Right. It came because of some lifestyle, environmental factor, because

of the AQI and going we don't know. >> Could be so many factors. So what is hap what is happening is that you are the way the healthcare today looks at you know the human body is very binary >> either you're healthy or you are diseased the moment you're diseased there is a ecosystem to serve you >> but you but that's not what is happening what is happening exactly is that you are on a spectrum >> makes sense >> so in between this healthy and disease there there are stages where you are and maybe you have some symptoms right and

the disease has just started >> but you but the system cannot term you as a diseased person >> right >> but that is what true prevention Mean right can you understand where you are on the spectrum and can you move back towards being healthy and can you stay there as long as possible that is longevity >> right so the the first step is to understand where you are on spectrum and for that obviously the technology has come up thanks to people like you who are deep into biotechnology life

sciences they have done those technologies ready right our job as a founder as a team is to bring that technology to the consumer and make it more you can say appealing and consumable, right? That's what Foxway is doing. >> That's amazing. In fact, I know I I'll just tell you that, you know, I wish I was as contributing into the world of biotech as I would have liked to. It's been years, but of course, uh, you know, I've had my nerdy bit still very attracted to a lot of stuff that's happening in this space,

right? Specifically when we speak speak about longevity we speak about biomarkers we speak about uh imunosuppressants we speak about gene editing and so on and so forth right and gene mapping and you know leveraging that through proteinomics and genomics and whatn not right >> so so there are these fascinating areas that a lot of people are not yet aware of because we don't use these terms as often right in a normal day-to-day life except for I think now >> with a lot of people even the influencers in the ecosystem have

started talking about a lot of these things so consumers are much more aware of the food that they're ingesting the lifestyle that they're having and so on and so forth which means that India is now at a place which is it's like a precipice of software where you know precipice of saltware you know that it will eventually lead to a mass adoption right a lot of people are now exposed to a lot of good habits that they need to have in their lifestyle I also wanted to get into this now you mentioned about building Foxho right and this is not your first company but Foxo

is in a very different space than your previous company which is Kenza where we work together as well, right? Uh >> uh >> consider that Fox is into longevity and that is still not fully mainstream yet if I'm not wrong at least in my perception is not fully mainstream yet in India. >> Yeah. >> So what's one of the most challenging or hardest parts that you're facing right now of building Foxo in a country like India? See uh like I mentioned it when you go back to the definition of

longevity it's being at on at peak of your health for as long as possible and this desire has been there >> the desire to look young to feel young right has been there there songs written about it right forever young >> right 18 till I die there are movies around it there are TV series around it that where people want to there are historical and mythological figures who change longevity right so it is in it human desire to look younger feel younger it's just that it is not happening Right? People have tried but those were

you can say snake oil that people have sold. Right? But today because of this advanced biotechnology and licenses that is happening longevity is possible >> but that requires a decent amount of effort from the individual or the user right or the customer right >> uh why because there is no pill for longevity. >> Longevity means that you have to have good practices which means you have to let go of your current lifestyle. not 100% but at to a certain 80 90% where you are disciplined you're doing things

on time some of those will when I talk about it you will think oh these are ancient wisdom >> but proven by science now like just sleeping on time waking early in the morning sun exposure right 15 minutes sun exposure uh eating less smaller meals at at night right eating before 6:30 7 a lot of things will go to instant wisdom so our forefathers had figured out few things because they knew that if we do this this is good practice and is good for body >> and now science has proven it but there are obviously new things that science

has come up with and when you combine both then longevity happens but it's difficult to be on that path right so the aderance or the participation from the customer we see that as a challenge it's not that they don't want to do it they are customer our customer they're members so they spend money to become foxo member right >> but life happens so life coming in between this longevity goals >> is The biggest challenge that I'm seeing as a founder and I know my my members are also kind of facing it and that's the system we are building. Like I said,

we are not just an app. >> We're a combination of app and human and and other things which makes longevity possible. >> No fair. In fact, uh you know, there's been a lot of talk recently in India as well about longevity, right? I mean last 6 8 months I think on social channels in social circles from VCs to the so-called intellectuals I'm hoping I'm included in that we we've started talking a lot more about longevity right and the various things that we're talking about it's becoming a bit of a

content trend in fact we are talking about longevity on on record today right so did you feel that you know this is uh You know there there's merit beyond content trends that you know that you see in longevity and the way we are approaching it or is it more >> at this point in time just a content trend and you know majority of the people are just focused on the content side of it not really actually creating value. No, it's the value is getting created actually. If there is smoke, obviously there is fire, right? >> So there are real things are happening

and it's good that people are talking about it. It just makes my life easy. >> Right. In fact, if investors ask like what's your GTM? I said there are like thousands of influencers and experts talking about longevity. >> Right. >> Right. So what I need to figure out as a founder is the right science. >> They are educating people which is good. Right. Like I said because of the science today longevity is is possible and and the first step towards that is the lifestyle things that I mentioned but also the new sciences like gene

editing stem cell rejuvenation right cellular sinence all of these things are the innovation is happening either in valley or in some European countries those will also play a role in longevity. >> Is this also happening in India? >> Yes. Yes, absolutely. Stem there are players who do stem cell rejuvenation they are curing dementia and Alzheimer through exoome therapy or uh stem cell rejuvenation. So early days so things are happening because we are on ground. We we know things are happening. We've seen people becoming better because of

some of these advanced therapies. It has not become mainstream and this content ideas content creation will only help us. >> So I think more of that will only help the uh ecosystem to understand what longevity is. Makes a lot of sense. Are we seeing those outcomes like some of those experiments that are happening outcomes happening as well? Some proof that your things are shaping up >> like stem cell regeneration for knee issues or ACL tear injury those are happening now. >> Regeneration.

>> Regeneration. Yeah. >> Okay. That's amazing. >> When you started Foxo, you must have had some belief system around longevity when you started. It's been a while as well, right? It's been >> almost a year now. >> Almost a year now. Did anything change through that period of one year where you know some perception or some hypothesis that you initially had when you started Fox to now something may have changed and you like pivot you know this is more specific more insight driven that you have figured out and

you're like hypothesis change >> has there something like that >> some of the hypothesis were proven uh correct right so we continued doing that some were proven wrong so we started thinking about what what was the thing like so one of the hypothesis was that when whenever you start as a founder you know right you you are a founder so you know that everybody will ask you who is your ICP >> who are you building for so for us we thought okay anybody who's uh let's say late 30s early 40s have kind of gone through their uh youth right prime now

must be facing difficulty hey I was when I was late 20s I used to party I I would have fun now I feel tired I feel sluggish I need like three cups of coffee caffeine load right and then can I can only start my day so I think that was the IC CP that we thought would would be great. Obviously that is there. Our current customer base have those kind of members today who are in late 30s or early 40s. But we saw an immense um you can say interest from very young generation zenzies and these are like crypto founders. These are young uh like AI kind of people, researchers who are

making decent money and they're saying, "Hey, I'm 29, 28 and I know what will happen to me when I'm 40 because I can see it in my cousin or my my elder brother or sister or I can see it in my parents. I don't want that anymore." >> Makes sense. >> And they've stopped drinking. They're not partying. Right. So that was a hypothesis which got proven wrong which is good for me because it's this increases my time. So, so we have the youngest member we have is a 20-y old crypto founder. >> Makes sense. Yeah. I asked him, "Why are

you here, man? You you don't have any issues, right? You're almost healthy." He said, "No, no, I don't want to be unhealthy." >> Ah, well, that's true. I mean, that's a major mindset shift that we seeing in >> Yes. Exactly. So, that's that's something was worth like it was an eye openener for for me personally because when I was in 20, I would have never become a customer of Oxo because I'll say what makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah, I mean I probably in my early 30s also said I'm perfectly good, right? You're high on

life, >> high on ambition. >> Absolutely. >> And three night outs like together like back to back and still do good things, right? Yeah. >> So sh let's also decode the longevity movement in India at this time or moment in India at this point in time, right? uh you must have come across a lot of myths, rumor mills of sorts right about longevity in India. Anything that is that you consider one of the most dangerous myths that is circulating

around in the ecosystem around longevity? See some of these things like for example like IV therapy or those things right they're good >> right for example let's say let's talk about rapamy right the drug that lot of longevity gurus experts have said that it is useful in in a micro doing in a low dose >> but some of those things might not be relevant for Indians today exactly like like IV therapies might not be relevant for Indians today because they are overdose of cocktail of multivitamins and minerals and you give it to them in

one shot right And because of that you can see today now people want do IV micro do basically do overdose of micro IV therapies during wedding functions because it just >> keeps them active for longer for longer that's the that fusion >> exactly it detoxes the the alcohol that you have taken during the parties right >> but then we are abusing the system right the IV therapy is built for people who need my over let's say a potent dose of minerals and vitamins because they have certain issues to absorb it. >> And for example, you have a gut issue

>> and you take certain supplements, you'll not be able to absorb it because your gut is not the gut lining is up, right? >> So now that thing was built for these kind of people, but now you're abusing it in a different setup because you want to you want to look younger or you want to have your glowing skin. So what I see is that in at least in India, longevity is still some practitioners do it at a superficial level. >> They talk about more anti-aging. It's more anti-aging than actually going deeper into human biochemistry.

>> Makes a lot of sense. >> So that's why we'll have a bad name, right? >> Because the true practitioners like us will face a problem. You are a long longevity company. The other was was a longity company. It did not give me any result. Right? >> I've seen some influencers taking that IV uh therapy as well, right? That you know we parting the next 5 days. So let's get the whole trip thing done >> and we loaded on it. Right. >> There's a bridal bridal package for IV therapy.

>> You get glutathione, you get glow. Wow. >> Going skin crazy. >> Uh no that's fantastic. In fact you mentioned we'll wrap up and I was like we were discussing earlier I heard Rajett also from biopic also mentioned this that you know we have fought malaria differently. We have fought more politely, our DNA construct in India is very different than that of the western environment. >> And because of the pollution, AK levels and whatnot, right? >> Uh and the fact that you know a lot of our bacterial infections that we catch

today in India, >> a lot of these bacterium have also become pretty resistant to a lot of our antibiotics, right? So our antibiotic dosage has increased over the years, which is a big concern in India at this point. >> There's super bug coming, right? That will be another pandemic or soon. >> Exactly. So with keeping all that in mind, medicines like grapamy do not really work as well. Nikl Gawat in one of his recent chats was also talking about the fact that uh the you know recently at Bombay attended the WTF

event and Nikl was talking about the fact that you know he was in the way and he nailed uh he he took the respiratory modules >> for stem cells for a period of seven or >> exom therapy. >> What? >> Exone therapy. >> Okay. Yeah. So, so, so with this I just wanted to also check you know we we you touched upon this fact that ancient Indian wisdom also spoke about a lot of things. stuff we are saying that you know that was not proven by science but seldom we have seen that ancient

Indian therapies have had a lot of things which have gotten proven by science from way later even though they have seen it with their own eyes they just don't want to believe it because science has not proven it yet >> levitation telepathy all these things uh now with quantum physics quantum mechanics quantum entanglement you're trying to prove that >> right but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist like we use something called as panchangs >> and panchchang has timings and distances between planets that that have been

continuing for more than 2,000 year old right >> so so we may have had instruments and we have spoken about sras we've spoken about uh I know other other you know such such stuff in our books which have created longevity >> do you see uh western medicines uh really relevant for India you mentioned that is not second thing second part to that is do you think uh that there's also a need to potentially tap into the ancient Indian scriptures and figure out if some of those things were are still relevant today. So

basically if you look at ancient scriptures right ayida so the concept philosophically was great the first thing that I would speak about is that don't treat the disease treat the person right >> right >> and body is an integrated system >> it is not in does not work in isolation >> true >> and the modern equivalent of that is called systems biology >> which is the what last 20 years of innovation that has happened in biotechnology and life sciences which is

the whole ethos of Oxford >> so we also believe that body is an interconnected system. In fact, when you work with Foxo, the first thing we do is based on the data collected, we map your body into nine systems today. >> And then we tell you where you stand on those systems. Right? So that's the first principle that science has proven that I know that was correct. Right? >> Second is that like I said, you don't treat the disease, you treat the person, which means hyperpersonalization n equal to one, right? >> That's also the ethos of oxo,

>> right? Whatever will work for Abh will not work for Su. >> So I think these are two things that were great about Ayurida. In fact that's why the practitioners would make things like make medicines in front of you for you. >> Yeah. >> It will take time. It'll take time for them to do that. And uh I've also taken the medicine they were prepared like that only. But today what is happening is they are put in form of pills exactly like uh the supplement and farmer industry right

>> so that is incorrect right if you really want to truly practice aya you have to do n equal to one which and there are not enough great practitioners who do that today >> makes a lot of sense thank you so much uh jindu on that note I do want to also check in with you uh when you've been building out foxo as an entrepreneur as a founder what's a major unfair advantage you know that differentiates you from other people. >> Yeah. Cool. Good question actually. So like I said um if you want to figure out life right see

it very correctly that you have to look backwards and then only you can connect the dots right. So when I look if I think about almost 23 24 years ago when I was a teenager my dad wanted me to become a doctor like any middle class parent and I as I become a doctor engineer I wanted to go to IIT right and he said why don't you become a doctor. So what I did was I took all the four subjects math, physics, chemistry, biology >> in my high school and in fact I've done the dissection like I've done done frog, cockroach those things also. I've

learned those things for yeah road also >> it was fun but I didn't want to become a doctor. I gave the exam but my heart was in uh engineering in IIT but I got into it and while doing that I did enjoy the subject especially botney. So, so I thought why not combine what I loved about biology and also engineering right and the obvious answer was something like biotechnology which you did right as a subject or biochemical engineering biohysics is also there in some of the IITs and there was food engineering in IIT Karak so based on my all India rank I got food engineering which had some of

those components so I did learn about microbiology biochemistry a lot of food biochemistry actually and I did use that in my first three years of my uh professional life I in a US startup which was into food supply chain management. >> So used to predict food's quality in a cold chain, right? So a lot of food biochemistry there also. After that I started my first company um called Skenza >> but uh life came full circle when I felt like felt sick during the co time had ulcer and to figure out what was

happening in my body. I had to go back to my old old days of microbiology and biochemistry. I figured it out >> working with the doctors who understand the newer sciences and that's how Fox got kind of born right and that advantage of me understanding biology and chemistry and engineering right uh system thinking did help me to attract the best of the doctors and uh scientists to be become part of the team of Fox right so they resonated the with with our philosophy and the way we want to build the company so that's the unfair advantage we have

>> that's pretty cool that's really cool and it's very holistic. Uh if Foxo wins and and becomes very big in the next 3 years, what is that one thing in India and the Indian healthare system that would become obsolete? >> So as I mentioned early earlier in the podcast that uh we see health as a spectrum, right? >> That there is in between there are people who are not feeling uh exactly good >> but they are not diseased. Right? >> So that's the idea that we want to educate more people about that spectrum

>> and when they understand that spectrum they don't progress towards disease. Right? We can mitigate it through through right food, lifestyle changes, supplements, exercise, which means that we will see less and lesser number of people going into diabetes, hypertension or cardiac issues, which means lesser pills, right? So the biggest change I see is that if we are if we succeed then the sales of farmers should be less. >> Makes a lot of sense and that's I think most people should look forward to that. >> So thanks so much Shindu. The next section or segment is

interesting because what we call that as signal or noise. Uh basically I'll throw a bunch of uh quick questions at you. You'll require quick answers. Each statement has to be you have to call it out as signal or noise. Right? Signal means that you know you are looking at an impact trend from there and you're able to foresee that this will happen. It's a signal of that. Noise is that you know this is just talk and nothing really into it. Right? So ready for that? >> Yeah. Great rapid fire. Let's do that. >> So the first one is continuous glucose

monitors for non-diabetics. >> It's a signal. >> A signal. >> Yeah, it's a signal. I'll tell you why. Because uh even if you are, for example, like I said, nobody's healthy. >> So even if you're not noni diabetic, >> you might be insulin resistant, right? You might be which is called as hyperinsulinemia which means that >> your body HB1C and fasting blood sugar are normal but your body is making more insulin to fight out the extra sugar that you are putting into the body. >> Makes sense. So it could be other heart

related issues and other things as well beyond just uh diabetes. >> So CGM for non-diabetic is is a signal. >> Okay. Full body annual checkups versus targeted biomarkers. So depends on who what kind of panel you are doing. So it's it's a mixed right. It could be noise if you are not getting it from the right partner. >> But yes, full body annual checkup is important but it has to be the panel that gives you enough data to understand the body. >> Got it. Supplements as the primary level.

>> Uh it's noise. >> Noise. >> Food has to be the primary level. >> Fair. Variables is equal to health outcomes. >> Noise. >> A thermometer cannot cure the fever. You need a doctor for that. >> Makes sense. Strength training as the number one longevity intervention >> signal. Absolute biggest signal ever. >> Wow. Okay. Intermittent fasting for everyone. >> Uh noise. Not especially for people having gut issues. Women should not fast

that much. >> Mhm. >> Woman body is very different from male body. >> Right. So it is very contextual. >> It is not a blanket statement that people should give. >> Fasting. Okay. cloned uh sorry cold plunge or sauna stacks >> it's signal >> signal >> yeah used when used in the right context right again cold plunge is not relevant for women that much than male body they're very different bodies so

>> longevity clinics for mass India >> I think it's signal it is going to happen probably we'll make it happen yeah >> amazing >> ei health coaches replacing humans >> it's nice >> it's nice >> you can't replace take human out of the healthcare not going to happen >> got Even if I'm building it, I'll say always say that. >> Nice. No, that makes sense. Biohacking has a lasting movement in India. >> It's a little bit of noise.

>> Yeah, because there biohacking has to be done based on data, right? If you're not using data, then it is not by hacking. >> One last question and this is not signal and noise. Thank you so much for giving me such amazing answers on signal and noise as well. But one last question to end the conversation on. If you had to give an advice to a 30-year-old Indian >> who wants to feel like he is still 30 or maybe 45 at the age of 90, what would be your oneliner advice to him? >> Yes. Not oneliner, four lines. Okay. >> Like uh watch your calories cuz that will define how much you weigh.

>> Mhm. >> Watch your macros because that will define how you look. >> All right. So which means that eat have calorie deficit. That's one of the proven longevity practices that always eat less than what you need >> which is what Japanese do 80% right they feel fill their stomach 80%. So that's the first thing. Second is uh look at your plate. Build your plate so that it's 25% protein, 25% carbs and rest 50% comes from vegetables. Right? So look at calories uh not from a perspective that go very crazy about it but would always

be calorie deficit which is always good. Right? So calorie determines how you weigh, how much you weigh, macros determines how you look, right? Micros determine how you feel. >> So have more uh like variety in your plate, right? Different kind of vegetables, nuts and everything. So that will uh determine how you feel. Do you feel brain foggy, sluggish, are you energetic, right? All of those things because you get your minerals and vitamins from vegetables. And then antioxidants will make you feel younger like how much you live. So what color

spread you have in a plate, >> right? So it should look like a holy plate, right? >> Makes sense. >> So that's what I'll tell every 30-year-old. >> Wine has resprol which I think is antioxidant. >> Yeah, >> I should I think we should we should switch into glasses of wine soon. >> But then you need a lot of wine to benefit. >> Okay. Well, thank you so much. That was a very very fun conversation. I think a

lot of people are going to learn a lot about longevity which is super critical in today's DNA as we start progressing. On the parting note, I would like to say that you know recently I came across a very interesting blanket statement though that you know by 20 2037 we're likely to you know achieve escape velocity when it comes to escape velocity >> long escape velocity and by then if in case people don't have any major ailments they're likely to go beyond 100 years of age. >> Absolutely

>> fantastic. Looking forward to that and I'm sure that you know you're going to play a part in that too. So thank you so much for having this conversation. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Cheers man.