Ep4: Indian Fandom: COMIC-CONised ft. Jatin Varma ep4

Favorite comic book of all time. >> There's a gentleman in Mumbai since the first ComicCon comes dressed as Chhatta Chopi. The person who brought Comic-Con to India, Jatin Wat, you know, more often than not, also called as the chief pop culture officer of the country, right? Is that true? >> Self acclaimed. >> For four and a half, in fact, he was three and a half then. He was like, "Dad, mama, when are we going to Comic-Con again?" >> Biggest reasons they come there is the sense of community that they get and

sometimes they don't even know that they like it. >> I sense that underlying satire in some of the sentences. >> Worst case scenario, it didn't work. We'll at least have a Wikipedia page entry. We even had a fake live birth on our stage just to make fun of three idiots. >> How difficult or easy is it when you have a partner who is both your professional partner and a personal partner as well? >> I don't like giving advice to people because I feel like everyone has to

figure out their own path. >> Was there a like key moment where you said okay yeah this is going to become really big. >> They did not know us. They did not necessarily believe us. Everything else is just being pulled out of their asses. Do you think uh people are now taking this whole space a lot more seriously than back in the day? >> It's like you know we joke about not everyone should be on their internet even even Zakir Khan was a host and in India the biggest challenge they think comics is for kids.

>> If you could bring one global pop culture icon to India's comic con who would it be? This show is brought to you by CRUDs, your partner in digital transformation. From cloud innovation to intelligent automation, we redefine enterprise growth, empowering organizations to shape the future with technology that thinks ahead. Hello everyone. I'm back in Bombay this time and we're shooting one more exciting episode for the Innovators and Disruptors podcast. I'm Abed Tundan your host and today's conversation as you can

see from my attire as well is going to focus a lot on pop culture about fandom and a lot beyond that and who better than a person who's been at the helm of it who's built an iconic brand in India and we have the person who brought comic to India Jatan Jatan thank you so much for being here >> thanks for having me >> Jatan you are you know more often than not also called as the chief pop culture officer of the country right is that true self- acclaimed. >> Self-aclaimed. Okay. No, but I think that's so true, right? Because uh 2011

when you started this, that's when you brought Comic-Con to India. Uh I don't think so there was ever a concept clearly a concept of fandom of pop culture combining together with communities, right? >> Yeah. I mean, there were um people who were really into it, but there wasn't um single platform or space where you could get together and express yourself whether physically or online. So yeah, that was and that was something that when I started I wasn't it was I mean it was something I thought about but it wasn't something I was planning to do

right >> my intentions of doing the event were slightly different back then >> um and it so happened that obviously that ended up becoming one of the biggest things that we uh bring together for Comic-Con. >> No, very true. In fact, uh this is one of the things that I was very curious about, right? 2011, I mean, I don't know if the generation older than mine or ours, uh would have probably looked at people wearing fancy dresses as costumes or so to say, >> cosplay.

>> They did not. Uh in fact, the first Comic-Con, a lot of the people who were dressed up were uh me, my team, uh friends and family, um nieces and nephews. Uh we had to kind of cajol people into coming dressed up. Um, and it was very weird for them. It was >> like a fancy dress competition. >> Yeah. I mean, the fact that we don't want to call it fancy dress. We wanted to introduce it as cosplay, but obviously everyone said fancy dress, >> right? >> And it was it was awkward. But the moment they got to that space and

everyone just >> wanted to get pictures, clicked with them. They were kind of like celebrities there, right? >> So, that made it uh a lot of fun uh for everyone cosplaying. And then the year later it was a lot easier um getting cosplayers. And then now it's never a problem. >> In fact, the biggest thing that people ask me is that you pay people to come dress up. I'm like I've never paid and uh luckily we never have to and uh and each city just uh is just so much fun.

>> Yeah. I I think people are so excited and motivated by that. I've the first Comic Con that I attended was 7 years ago. Me and my wife, we've been there a few times and now my kid has been there a couple of times too. We're super excited about it. In fact, that's for the badge as well. Geek parents, right? >> Yeah, that's true. >> So, last year I wore the same attire and looking forward to games. >> Yeah, Squid Games. And uh >> in fact, that's where my curiosity uh started right when you started this. What was going on inside your brain? Was

it was it about nostalgia that you probably must have seen this somewhere else and you thought that you know, let's bring it in? Did you see a business opportunity or was it like you know because you yourself come in from a background where you have uh you know joined or converged uh parody publications uh content basically at large with communities right and commercialize that as well right so when you bring these three and was that on your mind what did you just want to bring in like-minded people to this environment

>> um I think it was a bunch of reasons um one I wanted to do something which had not been done before in India Yeah. Um worst case scenario it didn't work. We'll at least have a Wikipedia page entry. >> Uh it was also um this um at that point in time I was producing television shows for channels here in Mumbai >> and um we were kind of like an agency uh where we didn't really get to control the end product. Uh we pitched the ideas but someone else took it. >> So um that was also nagging at me. I really wanted to do something on my own

where I I control the entire destiny and the flow for it. Um third I was trying to publish comics. Um and through that I met and got to know a lot of artists and writers and um there was always a challenge uh how to sell comics uh where to sell it, where to promote it. We tried book fairs, everything, but um nothing really worked out. And then this idea sort of came about um in my team, in my office that should we just do our own comic con? Uh we looked up, no one had else had done it or attempted it >> and we were like that's it. Um we had very limited experience doing events.

Nothing actually. Um barring a fake award ceremony. Uh but I think it was my 20s. I was um I had a successful running business. So I had the ability to invest in something and just wanted to do something new and different and all of it came together and that's it. >> Wow. That's that's very cool and interesting. Uh in fact the first one if I'm not wrong happened at Dillihart 2011 right? >> Uh the footfalls were around uh 10,000 people. >> Well footfalls are everyone who entered Dillihart that day that weekend. Um that

was one of the reasons we did. We were like first of all when we try and explain to someone what comic-con is it's a challenge at back then. So Dillihart before this is pre-polluted Delhi. This is where you know we had blue skies in that February and beautiful winters open air. Uh Dillihart was a good place to hang out for college kids >> right >> um and a lot of people in general and we thought if we could do it there it's a arts and crafts bazar um has his own amazing food court as well.

>> I think it'll work and we wouldn't have to worry about visitors because there'll always be someone there, >> right? Um so that was the idea and back then Delhi was quite different. Uh this is post the Commonwealth Games. So Delhi had suddenly become very neat and clean and >> lots of new stuff. Um so we thought you know let's cash in on this u infrastructure and try and do something and the heart seemed like a very central location for us to do it. >> Right. I I I sense that underlying satire in some of your sentence and

phrases to talk about it. I think that's a it goes back a long way. >> Yeah. I mean um Yeah. I mean it was it was quite a it was a government venue. Um and it was quite a challenge to do something there and there were um there was a the day before the event the venue was like no you can't do it now. >> Oh wow. >> So it was just a lot of drama and hij jinks and everything but it all came together. >> Wow that's fantastic. I'm glad that it did. Uh but was there a moment in in the first event right in the first instance

of that uh Comic-Con being launched at the Lihar that you felt what was going on inside your mind at that point in time those two days of one one or two days that happened and uh was there a like key moment where you said okay yeah you know what this is like my product market fit of sorts and you know this is going to become really big. Um so the headwinds were there. Um because I had a running business, I had a sales team. Um I did marketing myself with some of my uh team members helping me. >> Um we were getting a okay response. Uh people were willing to pay for boots.

They I think the venue helped. >> Um we were able to pull some sponsors uh including my father's uh company. Um we were able to get people interested. >> Which company? Sorry. Uh my father works for Usha Shiram. Okay. So appliances and all. >> Um we were able to convince a lot of people the Amachitra Kata team said they'll come which is a big thing for us >> right >> uh so we tried to reach out to everyone there including uh you know diamond comics Raj comics anyone and everyone who was trying to do something in comics

>> so people were excited they did not know us they did not necessarily believe us but I think they considered the fact that it's happening at a central place and it doesn't cost so much. So people were interested. We were um generating some revenue so it wasn't a a loss as such. Um so yeah I mean that gave me a good indication that okay it'll happen. >> Now the challenge would be would it uh really take off or would people appreciate it or like it. >> Uh I think by the end of the first day that was clear that this was a good thing and people were really enjoying

it. Uh in fact the next day it rained which is unseasonable uh for Delhi >> but people still were hanging around and having fun. Um and um and I knew that we had hit upon something really uh great. Um looking back I honestly that weekend and that uh few days before um I only have fleeting memories. I it just it was a extremely stressful and u super fastm moving few days. No, that's fantastic and I think uh uh gives us a sense about what really happened initial days in fact you know talking about economics since you said that you know you you had started making certain revenues and

probably profitable as well at that point in time or was it >> um so operationally it was able to break in >> break even um but then obviously I wasn't counting the overhead and everything else right um so at least from the get-go there was an opportunity to try and make this profitable it took us a while >> um because like I said we I did not come from exhibitions. It's at the core of it. It's an entertainment exhibition. >> Uh exhibition is a big part of it. Um so everyone and anyone who was trying to

help us do the events was certainly taking us for a ride. Uh so it was a it was a steep learning curve in the first few years but we we learned it. We we you know mastered it eventually. >> Could you share with us a little bit of uh sense of how the economics work out because I know there's a lot of work around sponsorships. There's brand partnerships and booths and so on and so forth. Then there's licensing, there's ticketing. >> Yeah. So um so in the beginning there was only one source of revenue which was exhibition space which is you rent a

booth, >> right? >> Um and then because we wen we had some sponsors but to be very honest since we didn't really know what our event was >> and we didn't really know people didn't understand how to leverage it. So we weren't really going out to look for sponsors. um though we were getting interest from brands. So eventually um initially it was exhibition space then when we realized that we need to grow we initiated ticketing >> that became another source of revenue and then eventually sponsors. So for us

um it was it's a equally sort of split between those three revenue uh spaces which is u exhibition rental uh ticketing and uh sponsorship. Sponsorship ends up being I uh the cherry on the cake. Um we usually aim for uh recouping our money through ticketing and exhibition space >> but it depends on the scale and of the show now and now things have really gone on a different level. So uh but yeah but those are the main pillars of our revenue. >> That's fantastic to hear. In fact talking about this uh there has to be a

very conscious effort to scale this up from where it started from and uh I want you to talk about that you know when you look at it it started off as an event as a siloed event that's happening in the pop culture space versus the iconic brand that it is right what was that conscious effort that had to be put in to design it uh as this brand that it is today >> I wish I hindsight is 2020 um so when I first read it I never thought I would do anything beyond once a year. >> In fact, the first show was not called Delhi Comic-Con. It was called the first

annual Indian Comic-Con. >> In fact, for the first 2 three years um at least towards the third year um we were growing, we went to different cities. We understood from the first day that um people are not going to travel in India for something like this. You'll have to take it to them. But um but to create a brand all of that that came much later probably at the end of our third year starting our fourth year where we started ticketing and we realized that we've entered a new league in terms of the scale of our business.

uh we were uh being um you know shown interest by strategic investors um um and that led to a lot of people investing as well initially but um but yeah I mean the whole idea of creating a brand came about I think around 2013 2014 where we felt that okay now we understand what we're doing and we have an opportunity to really go big >> and um and then we need to kind of uh streamline how we talk, how we look, how we communicate. Um, and yeah, so that was the whole process and we we during this time during the fourth year of our business, we um had a strategic

investor, >> okay, >> which was a one of the largest exhibition companies in the world. Um, they were also the owners of New York Comic-Con, um, Chicago, Australia. I mean, they were doing Comic-Cons all around the world at that point in time. So they they also helped us understand how this business works internationally and um professionalized our setup helped us um uh you know really um understand uh how to mature a business. Um so yeah so around that time >> very interesting uh Jan I have invested

in a few companies too and uh I was just thinking I have never invested in a company which was building out a brand in the pop culture space. If as an investor I have to I had to go back and think about this what kind of valuations would work out right because I'm not too aware to be honest it's probably lack of my exposure on this but how would how would these valuations work out on what was your selling point was it just the monetization the revenues annual revenues and a multiple of that >> so initially um to be very honest I'm not a I'm not the best at numbers um my

part business partner is the better person uh in talking numbers in Excel sheets um from what I've understood as a basic businessman it's the value is basically what someone wants to pay and what you're willing to accept >> um everything else is just being pulled out of their asses though um I mean um initially when we got investor we weren't really looking for one we were approached by someone and it was a strategic partnership because it was a joint venture of sorts because um because they were already in the business um I never thought about VC

funing funding back then the VC funding thing was only all just limited to tech in my opinion. >> Um it was before this D2C boom and you know everything. >> Um so I think it depend it I I know for a fact a lot of companies came to ComicCon when they were starting off and they grew and grew and became big brands as well. Um one example in this space would be sold store. Um in fact they probably one of their first uh sort of exhibition outing was at Comic-Con. >> Wow. >> Um so and now look at them you know

>> um so there isn't a set formula for valuations in this at least in the exhibition space it's a multiple of revenue >> uh profitability um a mix between a multiple of the revenue and profitability. Um events business is a very inherently risky business in India. It comes uh with a lot of people who are flyby uh operators. They'll come in, go away, bust, right? >> Uh the pandemic destroyed a lot of those uh businesses and individuals uh financially because it just ruined u the entire industry for a bit.

>> Um so in that scenario, there are only few very um strong brands, IP owners and parties in this uh community. Um so yeah I mean I think that was also partly um that also partly attributes to the valuation uh of a brand or a company in this space of it. >> Yeah in the pop culture space I think it depends on what you are into. Are you into merchandising? Are you into apparel um toys or whatever um while it is a extremely uh massive space when it comes to consumers I still feel as an industry it's not like the biggest. I think it there's scope for a lot of growth. Um it

is tied to the spending power of Indians and the middle class. So I think um it goes from there. >> You know what were the numbers looking like in terms of footfall of people who would come to comic con each year. >> So uh when we when we exited the business this is 2024 uh we were doing five cities. Um this is uh full five shows after the pandemic. So um for 2020 2021 were basically hibernation. We came back with just three cities in 2022 and then by 23 we were in back in the five cities which are Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, Hyderabad

um and Chennai. Um and um cumulatively we would get close to about two and a half lakh uh visitors um and some shows are three days most shows are two days a weekend. So on average about 40 to 50,000 people coming in um over a weekend. Um last year uh under the new uh ownership of Comic-Con uh they expanded to eight cities. So that the footfall shot up >> by default. This season there are 11 cities. >> Wow. >> So u so it's growing massively. Uh that's exciting to see and we'll also

get to see how um the communities are in different cities which are not all tier one. So so that's going to be exciting. So, so yeah, on average about 40 to 45,000 people on a weekend. >> That's fantastic. So, so there was massive growth right from when it started out to to by the time you exited, right? And and even then even in your advisory role, you saw these numbers coming up. >> Uh were there any key learnings that you realized about the consumers, the audience who would be there? What what were some you know interesting learnings

that you spotted along that journey? So everyone when I started off everyone was always telling me that um oh the consumer is pretty u price minded and you know if your ticket 100 rupees which is like a big deal for us 100 rupee ticket it's 1,000 rupees right now but um we we debated it for days and days would people pay 100 rupees. Yeah they would pay 100 rupees in a minute. Uh they would pay even more than that. So um so it wasn't really sure price does matter there is sensitivity but beyond a particular scale >> um you're looking at a premium audience

niche audience which is really willing to spend money and if they get value out of it >> right >> um so when you are able to give them certain value um give them a unique experience uh which is what we do uh they're willing to pay the money for it um obviously it's a given that when you keep >> if you keep making things more expensive maybe the overall size might shrink a bit >> but it depends again u we've not really faced that issue

>> uh we we've raised prices or tickets every few years >> um it's now become a non in the initial part when we I remember when we went from a free to attend event to ticketing we got a bit of push back online >> um but it was a part I mean there was no way for us to sustain this business otherwise so >> but now it it's all about what do we get out of that money not what is the price of it >> so >> no very interesting in fact I'll share an interesting nugget with you right as

a as a parent this is what I've noticed last year we went to a Peppa Pig show and we actually went for it twice and that was way more expensive than the pricing that you just spoke to me about which is 1,000 rupees uh right uh for the entry >> uh and uh I I've just realized this that you know sometimes the pricing doesn't matter like you said the experiential aspect of that environment that was so beautiful that you know even till date even before my son who's four and a half he came to know about that you know I'm having a chat with you since the last

couple of months I don't know somehow it came back into his and he was like dada mama when are we going to comic con he's been asking us of us uh to go back to comic con and that's the recall value right because the experience was so good for four and a half in fact he was three and a half then right and even then he enjoyed it because he took a lot of uh photographs with a lot of different uh you know >> cosplayers cosplayers right so it was very interesting for him in fact he got into the whole Marvel game DC environment we made him seeandi at that

point of time which was a big life animated character right out there uh dressed up and so on and so forth so he loved it and so did we and in fact we had been there seven years ago the first time me and my wife and or eight years ago if I'm not wrong so the experience of bar raising has been uh from there where do you see that you know this future is going to go into because one of the things that I've noticed is that you know there's a lot of uh digital ecosystem being developed around this right be it live streaming be anime cosplay uh gaming uh AI art and

so on and so forth right is that going to disrupt the way we are looking at the event format or the form factor or is it going to be all integrated and it's going to evolve into something you hybrid of sorts. >> Um I don't so I don't see a physical experience going away ever. >> Maybe it becomes more premium. Maybe it becomes more niche, >> right? >> Um but it's in fact post pandemic um I feel like people I mean there was obviously a massive >> surge of FOMO um which was which has led

to a awesome two years in events. Um but um now it's all back to normal. But I think um you can't you can't replace the physical um aspect of being in a space where people who are just like you or into the same things around you. And one of the things that is unique for Comic-Con is that um and one of the reasons why people attend it um and this is not even anecdotal. This is also based on uh the exit surveys and the research that we do >> is that people come there not for one reason. They come there for multiple reasons.

>> But one of the biggest reasons they come there is the sense of community that they get and sometimes they don't even know that they like it. You know um it's like being in a space where there are other people who are like you and suddenly you can really be comfortable, be yourself, uh dress up >> and then there's someone come up like oh Squid Games. Oh, I love that. Let me take a picture with you. He has no idea who you are, >> right? >> But um he is so excited to meet you and uh a lot of friendships and

conversations start from there. Um I it's true for me in my life, it's true for people I know >> and um and that's something that Comic-Con provides which is extremely unique. U not that other events can't but we have a very unique nature to our event uh which is difficult to replicate and is built over many many years now. Um and there's different generations of fans that now come in. Um I mean um there is a reason why we also had the geek parent walabit. We realized we were getting a lot of our fans were aging and they were getting a lot of younger kids

in >> and a comic con is not necessarily meant for kids. >> So u it's meant for teenagers and above essentially for you to really you know kind of enjoy it >> but but kids love it right. I loved reading comics which I didn't really understand when I was younger. So um so it's all about creating a space where people can really have fun and enjoy themselves and um and yeah I mean that's the reason why everyone ends up being there. So coming back to the a AI art I have a extreme distaste for it right now

but u but I don't um I don't see the digital space completely um removing this. In fact, I feel like more and more people will want actual physical um touch and experiences than because we our life is completely digital. I mean to be very honest, the amount of time you spend on the phone. >> True. >> Um it's always nice to go out and touch some grass. >> True. Very true. No, that's a fantastic perspective. In fact, uh I wanted to talk to you about one interesting aspect, right? that Comic-Con as a

platform has brought a lot of artists over the years to the mainstream environments, right? uh last time I went there I realized that there were a lot of these Indian publishing houses who were there of course starting from Amachchetra kata to uh you know uh various other platform uh v publishing houses including one who launched a multiverse a superhero multiverse right I don't remember the exact name right now because I over the years I've stopped following comics as much as I did earlier graphic novels uh but but I saw a very fantastic promo of them

launching this soon right multiverse with Indian superhero heroes, right? >> And I wanted to ask you this that, you know, once they get this platform of Comic-Con where they're able to demonstrate their capabilities of what they're building out, the characters, the depth of those characters to a lot of a lot of these audience members, the consumers uh how feasible is it for them to then go mainstream from there to because for example, if I forgot those names, maybe I was underexposed and that's why maybe I forgot. But what happens to a lot of these other brands?

Do they then get become mainstream or is there any way that you think they should, you know, continue to leverage Comic-Con throughout the year? >> No, it's very difficult to become mainstream. >> Extremely difficult. Um, in fact, very few people have cracked it and it takes decades. >> Um, I mean we have legacy brands like Diamond, Amachrakata, Raj Comics because they were there before a time uh of uh digital entertainment and being on your phone and all of that. and uh there's nostalgia built there. Um but for any of

the new people it's extremely difficult. I've past 15 years I've seen Comic-Con people come in and go >> um trying to build comics going bust with it. Comics is a niche space. Um in India it's even niche of a niche. >> So um and in India the biggest challenge that any creator faces is that they think comics is for kids. And while there are comics meant for kids, uh comics in general anywhere in the world are meant for adults. >> Yeah. >> Um and um the challenge over the years has been

that um when I first started Comic-Con um a lot of these publishers were there, the smaller ones um Amad is a fairly established company of course >> but um they would pay for their boots because we couldn't afford to you know let them um do much. We used to try and help them but they would have to pay for boots. When we reached a certain scale, we decided to invest in spaces in our shows which you you're referring to where you go and there's a line of Indian artists, creators, designers all together and they they don't pay to be there. We invite them over and we treat

them as guests now. And our aim every year is to expand that space, bring in more talent. So that's a little way of us trying to, you know, give back um to all these people who supported us initially. But Comic-Con is only one weekend in a year in one city. Um maybe 12 days or now 15 or or 18 days in a year. So um Comic-Con can only take you so far and we we can it >> what people have to now leverage is the space outside which is social digital >> and trying to figure out how to expand their IP. So when they if someone comes up to me and be like I'm I'm going to

launch this space in comics. My only feedback to them is that um it cannot sustain on books. >> Um you have to unfortunately um which kind of kills the fun in it. Look at it um if you're trying to make it into a business you have to look at it as an IP >> and then you try and expand upon it. Having said that, uh most people who have tried to look at it anything as an IP have failed >> because it's a creative space. You can't really make something into a business which initially is a creative thing which it takes a I mean it's luck,

timing, talent, everything. >> Um so a lot a lot of the quality work has actually been done by people who were not trying to make it into a business. They just wanted to create something unique. >> Um so yeah I mean um I in fact don't call it an industry. I call it a community and um I mean it's something that I'll continue to be associated with even beyond Comic Con and my aim would be to make it self sustaining or at least viable for people to keep creating projects. Whether that becomes a big thing or not, that's beyond anyone's

prediction. But ideally, um, Comic-Con and my efforts and people within the community, the idea is to make it viable for say if you have a great idea and you want to make a comic book >> and if there should be a way of actually getting it to uh fruition. >> This is exactly what I wanted to get into as well. Uh, Nordan acquired Comic-Con India for 55 kores if I'm not wrong. uh post that you've been with them as an adviser as well for a period of time, you know, helping them out run those activity and transition that uh in a seamless way. Do you see uh in the

future Comic-Con taking more form factors than what it is today? >> Uh of course. Um I'm I'm hoping and I'm very uh confident that they would take it to the next level. Um I while I'm I I used to be a lot more ambitious than I am now. I'm in my 40s now. Um I think I taken it to the place where I could and I thought it was time for me to >> maybe step away and let someone else take it to the next level. >> There is u many correlated spaces within the pop culture uh industry where Comic-Con can expand to >> beyond um physical events.

>> Um and that's always been on the cards. It's not like we didn't try but each you know when you expand into something it requires focus and investment. Um and for whatever reason, we would always fall back on focusing on the events. So now there's a great opportunity with a company which is that massive um to take it to the next level. >> Fantastic. Uh a lot of our viewers today are young builders, right? Or maybe not necessarily only young but they're definitely building in India, right? Uh a lot of them being young. uh would you want to give them any kind of advice in

terms of how could they disrupt in this space given the fact that Comic-Con is already so big in the pop culture space as a brand if someone wants to >> maybe create another entity or IP of this sort which can potentially scale up in the future by disrupting some of those loopholes. Could you give them some kind of advice around this? First of all, can it be disrupted? Uh Comic-Con is a brand and it's existed across the world for over 60 years now. Um so it has um its own um sort of identity which cannot be disrupted but honestly like I don't think I I like

giving I don't like giving advice to people. Um not in general because I feel like everyone has to figure out their own path. Um but in the scenario that we're in now in India um I would say look for a niche >> uh even if you think it's too small start with it um look for a premium audience when I say premium I don't mean any disrespect but look for an audience which can which is valuing their time and uh the experience rather than what looking at the price >> right >> um because that ways you have the

ability of really uh creating something unique for them and that audience stays with you no matter if it's a recession, if it's a downturn, it's a downwind, whatever that audience doesn't go away. >> Um so, so I mean that those are the two spaces that I could I mean two things that I could suggest to someone. >> Fantastic. So one you're very clearly calling out that there should be very strong super users community. Second is the super users community should be focused on time value over money as against money value over time right from economic standpoint business standpoint.

No fantastic that's a great advice and I think I think every every company today has some white spaces that they're not covering. So that is where I wanted to tap into as well that you know could people still figure out those white spaces. Oh yeah, there's tons of small niche within a niche and in this space where um the audience is so fragmented in terms of anything whether it comes television, movies or whatever, right? Entertainment in general, >> you find the weirdest things that have communities around it, >> right?

>> Um so so yeah, I mean like one of the recent trends which is hopefully will go away was fake wedding parties. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I I don't know who wants to go for that but there were people going all over not just in India but across uh the globe in the diaspora >> um there are bhajan parties >> is it I didn't know what >> I don't know what that is but I've gotten to know recently um >> uh but yeah I mean you know like one of the rec uh things that I've seen which is ironic considering we're in the most

polluted country in the world there are run clubs now all over the country >> and they're all running in this polluted air but they're all young people who are so excited and they and I saw that it wasn't really about running it was about >> finding those right type of people a lot of people are using it for networking for >> dating for you know so >> it's always about finding that community and uh you know trying to grow it um pickle ball it's like a you know like some drug addiction right now >> everyone that

>> everyone plays it >> true very true no that's very interesting in fact uh I want to talk to you beyond Comic-Con as well of of a very interesting uh episode in your life where you know you were uh you know you had built out random magazine and you had built out the golden kila awards as well. >> Uh what drew you to satire and parody so early and on in your life. >> Okay. So I am an extremely privileged person. I came from a very privileged loving family. >> Um they indulged me so much that they

were willing to send me abroad for studies. Um they indulged me so much that they were like oh you have no experience doing anything. Sure you can start a business. Um I love them for that. I uh my both my parents um that is the confidence uh that sort of um unbridled um um I wouldn't call it stupidity but like you know like yeah I can do it. What the worst that can happen is I'll I'll you know lose money and then I'll have to go back maybe I'll do an MBA. um that um as much as and and that comes from privilege not everyone gets it you

know so when I realized that I had that privilege I swore to myself that I will do everything crazy possible >> because if I don't take advantage of it and at this point in time in my life then I will never I'll regret it >> and um if you know my parents love me so much that they're willing to give me seed money to start my own company and imagine that their son can be a mag magazine editor and publisher. Sure. And kudos to them. They're the ones who uh supported me um when I started um you know um my father helped me with everything um from his contacts to

giving me money initially to hire people. >> Um and he was very happy when we eventually made it made it into a running business. Nice >> which is what he was saying. He was like make it into a running business, have a bread and butter and then you know um you can try and do something and we don't come from business. U my it's not like my family had generational wealth. >> So now that I think of it, I don't have children right now. Uh it's taken me very long to make money and be comfortable in life. Would I give away

money to my own children like that? I don't know. Uh but but yeah, I mean um it was um a love for absurdity. Um, it was a love for irreverence. Um, and I loved Mad Magazine and I couldn't. I went to the uh DC office in New York >> to try and see if I could license it. Someone had done it before. Uh, they ran uh Virgin Comics and Gotham Comics and all of that, >> but the maths didn't work out for them. They were selling it at prices which just couldn't sustain, >> right? >> Um, so um, so I went back. Um, I tried

to get the license. the prices they gave me for licensing, it was better to make my own comic or make my own magazine than to license it. >> Um, but I raided their free comics that they gave me. Um, but yeah, we came back and I realized um, we joked about what could MAD in India be and it wasn't we weren't mad. I felt Indians were more random and it was a funnier name and we >> started that magazine and that magazine uh, led me to amazing things that I'm doing right now in life. even though it only lasted for eight issues. >> Wow. Okay. Very cool. I didn't know

about that. >> Yeah. So, it only lasted eight issues. >> Okay. >> And it uh led to everything from um the Golden Ka Awards to me producing television shows to eventually doing Comic-Con India. >> So, so that that's what I wanted to get into as well because how did you even come up with a name such as Golden Kila Awards? Because the moment you think about it, I think more often than not people would end up laughing at the name itself. So I'm we were copying Golden Raspberry awards.

>> We felt that we deserve and it was ironic. I mean around that time other people tried to make such awards but we were like no no we need to make it a golden something award because then we have that connect >> and um it was basically um Kayla was just the funny funniest fruit that we could find. Yeah. >> So, Golden Kale Awards made sense. Um, and to be honest, we tried very hard over the years to make it into some sort of a business, it could never >> uh come out, but we had so much fun um doing it. Eventually, um by the time

Comic-Con really grew, blew up, >> right, >> it was so difficult to do that award anymore because it required a lot of energy and effort. And um um around the time streaming sort of started off we we you know put an end to those awards but you never know we might come back these days the amount of crap that you see on streaming is deserves so many kas it's not even a joke >> that's true that's very true in fact I did go through as part of my own some of the episodes as well and the award categories were fantastic they were

hilarious >> did you did you receive any kind of a push back or a blowback I mean we were based in Delhi so that and we had nothing to do with the film industry so that made our lives easier but we um we got some some celebrities weren't happy obviously and then some took it in stride >> and then um I mean I remember a time where I felt like for about a period of two years the idea of giving someone a golden kaya was becoming part of the lexicon and obviously it went away but Um but yeah it was a lot of fun reading

all those responses um from celebrities and all but it was it was not received in a manner where they like let me line up and come and take it and the only person who ever showed up was um this really nice lady who's a lyricist and writer director now Anita Dut and she had written a song called Ishkala love >> and she came in a sabisachi sari she said you know when I was this song was being produced they said paka award and then she got it. Um, but we we had a lot of fun. We you know at the first ever Golden Gale Awards we had the legendary Jaspal Bhatti and I and it was

the first time we were hosting any celebrity >> right >> and we did not know how to take care of them. So we upset him no u so much but he was still such a amazing uh gentleman and his wife they performed and they did such an amazing thing and they loved it because he was all about irreverence and parody >> we had like other people over the years um Cyrus Bucha and all work with us >> and we really tried very hard to make it a big thing and we even tried to do host it in Bombay but it never worked out

>> but yeah >> it was one of those most fun things I've ever done in my life. >> Even Zakir Khan was a host who's now such a big comedian. >> That's how I met him first. You know, this is before he really became a big uh star. >> Okay. Very interesting. In fact, uh I did see that clipping of Anva Datri. I think she was laughing a lot right >> because we we weren't trying to insult someone. We were we we never thought they were not talented. In fact um me and the people who used to and my team

used to um we used to love bad movies absolutely love them. So we we were honoring these movies. We were not you know and one of the years um so if you if anyone who um Googles uh Gunda it's a very >> famous movie right so Kanti Sha was like a godfather level figure for us so we invite hunted him down bought him to Delhi with his famous actress Sapna gave them the platinum kaya and we honored them we didn't make fun of them and they were really genuinely so moved by it they were so happy and it was such a thrill to meet the guy who made Gunda

and you know, all of that. >> It's a cult movie. >> It is. And and I mean, um, so for us, um, all of this was so much fun. And, uh, I wish I had started all of this much later >> because I had a friend who kept joking that I had the zeroth mover advantage, >> which is doing all of these things before the age of YouTube really took off and all of that. >> U, but yeah, but looking back, it was just the most fun that we ever had. maybe time to revive that because by the way I did see pretentious movie reviews

and a bunch of other rose platforms eventually come in. >> They came came in and it made sense. I mean how can you live in uh India and not realize what's happening around you? Um and then I remember we even had a fake live birth on our stage just to make fun of three idiots, >> you know, because the baby had to be woken up. >> Wow. All right. uh but but both these uh I mean the background that you had of publishing and then eventually into parody and satire how did this lead to or or did this help you in many other

ways to build out comic? >> Um so obviously the magazine part of it um was all illustrative writers. So yeah, I mean that uh like I said that motivated us to publish graphic novels >> um comics and that eventually led to wanting to do a comic con >> but random was this lucky thing that I did which even though it lasted only for eight issues it got us into um I licensed it was my first experience with licensing I licensed Simu Singh and Lola Kouti from channel v if people are that old they'll remember uh Kio um so yeah I mean uh that's how I got into car.

That's how we said, "You know what? Uh," they said, "What else do you do?" You're like, "Uh, we can make TV shows." And they're like, "Okay, sure. Show show us a pilot." And then we shot a pilot. And we got into this is um, so we made a lot of dating shows called Dayto, Loveven, Date My Folks, Campus Blogs, I don't know, lots of stuff for Channel. >> Nice. >> Um, and it was a lot of fun. Made us a lot of money. And that's actually what bankrolled every crazy thing that we did, which is Golden Kayla Awards or publishing eventually even Comic-Con.

Comic-Con wouldn't have happened if I wasn't making television shows and so frustrated with it >> that uh you know that despite all the money I was like I don't want to do this anymore. I rather do something else. >> Makes a lot of sense and that's fantastic to hear. Uh the creator economy since the time you're talking about you know back in the day to today changed quite significantly. Do you think uh people are now taking this whole space a lot more seriously than back in the day? >> Um like with anything people take it uh

to the insane level and ruin it. >> Um technically both of us are creators. Uh right now everyone is a creator. >> Um which shouldn't be the case. >> Everyone should not have the tool but then that's how technology works, right? Um >> it's like you know we joke about not everyone should be on their internet. Um, but then that's the bad and the good that comes with it. >> Um, I I mean I it's it's a I'm still trying to understand it. I mean, you know, if you go on YouTube and you Google Comic- Con India,

>> you'll get our page eventually, >> right? >> But you'll get hundreds of people who made these >> vlogs and videos at ComicCon. >> We never told them to do it and they didn't come to us as media or press, >> right? >> They just wanted to do it on themselves. Some are really funny, some are really short better than what we would shoot. Some are like just basic. >> But u but yeah, it's it's an interesting space. Um I think it's getting a bit abused with who is a creator, what is

the quality of that content, >> right? >> And as with anything, when there way too many fingers in one pot, the broth is going to get spoiled. Um I think with anything you know people take it to a max level and then eventually it u you know consolidates and uh gets there. Um it's great for those people who have been able to you know individuals who have been able to u leverage the digital space and really promote their brand >> right >> especially people who are creators in the sense of artists of performers

>> um and that's a great thing I mean you could imagine getting famous uh before right and if when it happens with someone who's really talented you feel really happy about it >> true makes a lot of sense so do you think uh uh there's a lot of scope for it to go from here or or or get more structured or do you think this is >> I think there is a sort of a um what do you call it? It's the the real sort of generation is kind of aging out now. I feel like >> it's becoming boring. >> Yeah.

>> Schooling as I would call it, right? >> Yeah. And also I think there is something these companies will have to eventually do is that we know there's an algorithm which is controlling what we're watching. >> But you need to figure out how to break it because we don't want to keep consuming the same thing. We want to discover new things and if your algorithm is based on just giving us the same things eventually we'll get so bored of it we'll go away. >> And uh discovering new things is the fun part of internet which unfortunately has

become more difficult. So >> makes a lot of sense. uh thank you so much for sharing this perspective as well. in fact uh quite uh resonated with me as well because I've seen a lot of content which is fairly subpar in fact when we were initially chatting as well through Sahil that was one of the things that we we we spoke I mean kind of indirectly spoke as well saying that you know would love to host you in person because I realized that uh content uh is dependent upon the conversation of two people or more but it's also dependent on the quality of

the production as well right which I felt was so important to humanize that as against you know sitting 10,000 mi away is recording a zoom conversation putting it out there right doesn't give out the flavor at least I felt that you the kind of human emotions that need to come out uh specifically when we talking about inspiring stories right such as yours >> uh interestingly enough you came back from US you did your studies in Washington and Seattle right Washington Seattle and then you came back to Delhi >> what what was going on in your head you

know were you thinking that you'll come back and >> I watched I watched the film. So they said I wanted to come back. I honestly it was um so I'm from a generation which is um uh you know before I would say about so I graduated school in like 2002. I went to college straight and 2006 2007 that um >> I saw a lot of people uh around me coming back and wanted to do something in India >> right >> and it was a really um at least for my generation it was a really exciting time

because so many people are coming back and building something um I know I have people in my family uh who've done who came back uh left their comfortable jobs and started something in India now have you know IPOs of their companies so so it was a exciting uh place to be and I felt like um the privileged part comes in where um do I really want to do a job or I could maybe take a few years and do something on my own >> right >> and I think it was the starting u point of a lot of people wanting to get into

entrepreneurship I didn't even know I was doing that I was just wanted to create a magazine >> and um I remember um when I first published my magazine I s set up a small booth in world book fair next to me was Flipkart, >> you know. >> Oh, wow. >> Um, >> which year was this? >> This is 2008. >> Yeah. >> You know, um, we didn't have a great location, but theirs was worse. Um, but

look, you know, so, so I think a lot of people in that space came back. Um, I mean, much more talented and, uh, experienced than me. I was just a kid who was lucky enough to, uh, do something fun on my own. But my idea was that I want to do something creative in u I had compromised on a lot of things you know in India when you were growing up you're like um you if you're really good at study science engineer >> I wasn't the best so my parents like commerce and maths >> um hindsight I should have taken humanities I loved history and all of

that right >> um then when I went to college my parents have sent me so far and they're spending so much money investing in my future how can I and I couldn't get my accounting grade. So, I couldn't get into the undergraduate business school there. >> So, I was like, "Oh my god." Um, but what I it was in front of me and my family that I was excelling in English. I was in the dean's list. I would get the best grades if I just pursued English literature, >> right?

>> But who the hell goes to US to do English literature? So, so I did economics and I did uh international studies which I really liked. But um not and and there I was okay student but I wasn't the best. Right. >> So, so by the time I had graduated, I was like, let me since they're ready to blindly love and trust me, let me try and take full advantage and do something on my own and if I fail at it, I'll go do an MBA or something. I never did an MBA or anything. I'm just a graduate, >> right? >> But um

>> but yeah, I mean that was the main motivation just wanted to do something on my own. And for me to do that I would have to come back to India rather than try and do that in US with no money connections or whatever. >> Right. So in in some sense of it I feel that you know you're saying that you know you were very passionate about what you loved and that's why you pursued that as against looking at it from a very business opportunity >> yeah I I did not uh in fact I was a horrible businessman uh I learned through the school of very

hard knocks to u finally uh hone my business skills which is why now that I've exited a business it's so difficult to u jump back into something because I'm constantly you know um be like no no no it doesn't make sense it's too risky or whatever but yeah I mean I approached it uh purely um from a passion and fun and something I wanted to do in life perspective I had a bucket list right >> at 20 right I wanted to do these 10 things and out of those 10 things I've by the time I was 30 I'd done nine not that they were all successful but u but yeah I mean That's the approach I took

and I did it knowing that I had the privilege to do it so I may as well take full advantage of it. >> That's fantastic to hear again because like you said not everyone can do that but if you can >> then you should. >> Yeah, you should >> right should instead of being type caster into potential areas work or workspaces that you know would have worked for the last generation or the last decade and specifically with the way things are changing today it doesn't make sense.

>> Absolutely. I mean I I've I haven't had this conversation with my father. Um which I should now. Um but it it was I and it's not like he came from generational wealth or he had his own running business or something but he worked hard to build something and he was confident enough to fund me and let me do something on my own. And that requires a level of trust that um I was joking about that. I don't know if I I would put in someone else. Um so yeah, I mean uh uh it's all thanks to friends and family. >> That's amazing. Talking about family and

of course your parents supported you a lot but then uh you know your core team which comprises of Sun and K and Sun if I'm not wrong is your better half too. >> Yeah. >> Can I can I take the liberty of saying better half? >> Yeah. Better half. Yeah. >> All right. So how did that happen and uh how is how is that operating with such a strong core team together to create that kind of impact that you're looking at? >> Um I mean >> or even build it in that in the first place.

>> I've been through different generations of teams. Um the set of people started with me to there was a generation after that and then finally the generation that I exited on. Um few people remain constant Sonel being one of them. Um Karan also being one of them. Um and I think everyone brings their own strengths and they they're different in their own manner. Um like uh in my opinion Sonel's more uh motivated and dedicated to Comic-Con than anyone else. Um Karan on the other hand is more practical and um you know he brings brings a set of skills which really

helped the business grow um and was crucial in making all our deals happen. Um, so yeah, I mean, everyone brings something really unique to the table and I think it's relationships and um, comfort level and the way that we all work together that keeps people around. Um, and yeah, I mean that's that's I mean there's no exact science to it. >> Um, it's just learning how to work with each other and figuring out what you might not be best at, but the other person might be and letting them take the lead on it. And my biggest learning as a in a business having partners has

been that um you can disagree with them but if you if they are your partner you have to trust them and once you have that trust built then you can really excel because then everyone you know is focused on uh doing their best. >> Makes a lot of sense. Uh how difficult or easy is it when you have a partner who is both a professional partner and a personal partner as well? >> Uh it's it's not easy. Um it's it's very difficult. I don't think we've ever solved it. U because by default your lives overlap and um that obviously creates tension at

times. Um but the I mean you you all you have to do is um something that family member of mine told me a long time back. It's time management >> and also trying to leave your creating boundaries uh at um once you're home. Um and when you're younger, it's very difficult because you don't care. You're like, I don't care. I'm just going to, you know, I can work 24/7. Now that I'm much older and I've been through the run once, uh it's extremely important to uh not be consumed by it completely. It's difficult when you do something on your own

>> but you have to try and at least create a space for yourself which is other than your work otherwise um it can lead to uh issues and honestly ruin your personal life. >> J now that uh your advisory role is also coming to an end or has come to an end at ComicCon >> uh what what can we expect uh in the future from you? >> I wish I had the answer to that. Um as of now I'm just taking a break. I've never um I've been working since I turned 22 though mostly having fun while working but uh so this is the first time

in my life I actually have nothing to do. I have no set routine. I uh it's very um freeing but eventually it's going to get boring for me. Um so I I I will try and come back. I'll most probably be in the same pop culture space and do something around uh comics. I'll certainly want to help uh the comic book community. Um but to be very honest, I haven't really figured out what I'm going to do next. I'm taking my time with it. >> If you're still privileged, then I think that's the best decision you're taking as well. So, thank you so much uh Jatin

for sharing sharing a lot of perspectives, sharing a lot of interesting nuggets as well. I think that's going to be super helpful. It's definitely super helpful for me and I'm sure for a lot of other builders out there specifically in the space which is converging between >> uh community content >> uh and even commerce right in that sense of it uh to build out businesses meaningful sustainable businesses >> super helpful but I do want to have one last segment which is a rapid fire segment the first one favorite comic

book of all time >> uh Superman Red Sun uh Superman ends up landing in communist uh USSR and is a communist Oh wow. It's a pretty interesting comic book. >> Must read. Then uh one underrated comic creator that India should know about. >> Uh there's so many. Um but I'll Okay. So top of my head is a gentleman called Sumesh Kumar. >> Um he ran a web comic called Little by Little about his personal life >> and it's coming out as a book sometime next year. So look out for him >> for sure. Most memorable cosplay you

have ever seen at Comic-Con India. So there's so okay that's a tough one. Uh but I'll I'll tell you a story. There's a gentleman in Mumbai who for the past since the first comic con 2011 in Mumbai >> comes dressed as Chacha Chadri. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. He's aged now. He's older. He's getting closer to the actual Chacha Chadri age. >> But he comes dressed as Chacha Chadri at every comiccon in Mumbai for the past what 15 years now. So um so that's like a memorable sort of thing that I have I remember always.

>> Fantastic. If you could bring one global pop culture icon to India's Comic-Con, who would it be? >> Robert Downey Jr. >> H fantastic. The worst superhero movie you have ever seen? >> Okay. Um there's so many. Um >> who would you get the killer golden killer? >> Okay. So the thing that deserved a lot of GIS because it ruined a franchise was Batman versus Superman. But if I had to be a little uh more u you know Indian in that context in the 80s um they stole the entire remake of the original

Superman from Christopher Ree reshort it in Mumbai uh scene by scene dialogue by dialogue with Punit Isar actor as um >> as Khal and um as Superman and his father was Dhandra. Um Shakti Kapoor was the uh the villain. I mean it was just the most amazing movie. All shot in Mumbai. >> Okay. >> And it was also called Superman. In fact it stole the original music from the movie as well. >> So if you I think you can find it on YouTube.

>> I will do that. That's a golden golden killer goes to them then. Okay. The Indian Superman. Uh golden killer worthy trend in today's pop culture. Uh I think it would be um I think it would be the the segment of reals um especially the vlogs. >> Uh you know there's a a thing where people make vlogs of what they do daily, >> right? >> I think uh and I know people personally as friends who also do that so I'm making fun of them but I think that deserves a golden killer.

>> Got it. If you weren't doing Comic-Con, what else would you be doing? >> Uh, I don't probably doing something weird and uh funny or trying to u make a film. Um, I've always wanted to make a film and I joked about it with people that either it'll be so good I'll remember forever or it'll be so bad it'll be remembered forever. >> It'll not be in the middle. So, um, but yeah, probably something in that space. >> Fantastic. uh one piece of advice to anyone trying to build the next big pop pop pop culture movement in India. I think you said that you don't give

advices but any white space that you can talk about. >> Um yeah I mean find a niche in this space man and uh and just jump into it u and if you ever connect to it nothing like it then really help you make it make it into something. >> Got it. Who's India's next pop culture disruptor according to you? >> Oh I'll I'll let me butter up a friend of mine. Uh I'll I'll call Akshhatraati the next pop culture uh disruptor. Uh he's the CEO of Nwin Gaming. >> He's the gentleman who acquired our company but he's also acquired many

other IPs and he's trying to build new IPs. So um I'm sure he'll be successful at it and if he does it the way he's planning to then he'll certainly be a massive disruptor. >> Fantastic. One last question. What's the one word that comes to your mind when you think about innovation? overhyped. >> I think okay um I think a lot of things are very run-of-the-mill and these days they're uh been >> innovations. Um I think um there are very few things in life which are I mean there are many things in life which are

innovative but I feel like that word has now been used uh way too much should be put aside for used only in special circumstances. >> Makes a lot of sense but thank you so much. You know this is by far one of the most uh humorous conversations that I've had and there were a lot of serious nuggets that you have shared but yet overall uh in the overarching conversation I think it was the most fun conversation. Thank you so much Jan for taking out. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you.