S2EP9: Building for a Billion - India’s Future with Revolut ft. Paroma Chatterjee

We're valued at $72 the second highest valued fintech higher valued than a lot of banks UK based banks like your Barclays NatWest etc. You can decide what to do with that quote keep it or sniff it. Because I don't see a lot of leaders talking about this right? >> So I think that's the hook with which a consumer comes in. Today's conversation is all about the future of money with Revolut and for that I'm very excited to host Paroma Chatterjee. And catering to India where do you see the spending pattern evolving into?

Wow, loaded question. Inflection points occur in any corporate or enterprises journey is when you're meaningfully able to win over first consumers love. Mhm. Then the consumers trust and then the consumers confidence. Is the secret sauce the technology integration the tech algorithms with Sure audaciousness of the company to take on traditional banking as a challenger. In order to build a good product you can be a good product tech manager but in order to build a great product you need to be a consumer insights. From an India consumer lens

standpoint what kind of trust that you intend on building? >> Today in India we have 85% of consumers already on some digital financial app or the other. Is there a particular reason why Revolut is launching in India at this point in time? Hiring still feels risky not because talent is scarce but because the scenes are fragile. What if hiring worked like engineering clear signals documentary reasoning defensible outcomes because when hiring is a strategic risk it deserves infrastructure. This series is sponsored by Raj AI making hiring

decisions predictable and outcomes aligned. This show is brought to you by Crux your partner in digital transformation from cloud innovation to intelligent automation. We redefine enterprise growth empowering organizations to shape the future with technology that thinks ahead. Welcome back to the Innovators and Disruptors podcast. I'm your host Abhay Tandon and today's conversation is all about the future of money with Revolut and for that I'm very excited to host Paroma Chatterjee who's the CEO of

Revolut India and in today's conversation we're talking about all about a fintech giant Revolut who started as a very cool startup has become a global scale environment today which talks all about money and right from saving to spending to sending and managing money and I'm super excited to also get deeper into how Paroma decided to build it out in India which is a very very exciting market for the whole from a whole global standpoint as well. So thank you so much Paroma for joining in. Awesome to be here Abhay. Thank you for having me and I love the introduction

future of money with Revolut. That's we are. Exactly. I think it's it's such an exciting time to be in India and I did want to talk to you about a lot more specific into into some of these things some of the strategies and how you decided to build in India given the populace is also fairly differentiated I'm assuming from a consumer demographics and spend capability standpoint as well. Absolutely fire away Abhay. Thank you. Paroma maybe this is how I describe Revolut but if

you had to describe Revolut in one line to people who do not know about Revolut how do you go about doing that? First this conversation let me focus it on Revolut in India. Mhm. What we are going to be is pretty much what we are everywhere else in the world as well which is your everyday account. Mhm. For spending. What it essentially is is an alternate to your bank account which is a wallet account where anybody can keep money in it. Along with that you get a card which you can use to spend against the balances

that are kept in that wallet. Right. And of course in an India context it is integrated with UPI enabling customers to make payment seamlessly using that account. Makes sense. Now along with that account you also get a forex card so that for Indians who are traveling overseas or have need to send money overseas they can use the same account for that purpose. Mhm. And it's not just for the individual it's for their entire family. Along with that you can also get an account for your kid which introduces 8 to 18 year olds to the entire world of spending and saving in a responsible

manner. Makes a lot of sense. That's who Revolut is. No that's fantastic. One thing that I would like to add for the consumers perspective is that Revolut today is present if I'm not wrong in 45 what countries? Or more? 40 officially that we have launched in India is the 41st. India is the 41st or 42nd? >> have three four more countries where we've secured the licenses where the product build is underway which should get launched over the next year. Fantastic. 70 million customers is what

we have crossed. Fantastic. That's a that's a huge milestone to be honest and what got you excited to be building Revolut's journey in India? What got me excited? Um it's like a marriage Mhm. and what attracted me and which still I continue to love after 5 years with Revolut is the sheer audaciousness of the company Right. to take on traditional banking as a challenger. Right. Makes a lot of sense. >> second thing is the sheer scale of vision that the company has. Mhm. To want to serve 100 million users

meaningfully across the world to be present in 100 countries Right. >> before 2030 is out. I think the sheer magnitude of the vision is is the second thing that possibly attracted me. And from a personal lens the opportunity to take a product which has been loved from London to Tokyo and bring it to India for everybody from a Delhi to a Mumbai to a Bangalore to a Hyderabad to fall in love with the same product is what excited me about taking on this challenge. No that's super exciting super exciting in fact if I'm not wrong and that's what we had discussed it's

it's been after 25 years that you know a global fintech has decided to set up shop in India in a in a in a more consumer oriented way. Um I wouldn't say set up shop so a lot of global fintechs have tried over the last 25 years to dabble their feet in but for whatever reason um a lot of them have not necessarily survived in a meaningful way over time and that's ironic. So that's the challenge that Revolut has taken head on to go and say we want to be here in this country for a long term we will do what it takes to win over the hearts and

minds of the Indian consumers the Indian regulators and the whole ecosystem here and that yes is probably one of the first global companies that is doing this at scale in this uh post 2000. Wow. Well that's fantastic to hear. In fact I do want to go deeper into this but before that I want to ask you another very intriguing question for me which is you know we understand the scale of Revolut now at a global stand from a global standpoint right it's huge but you know we have always I mean I

remember about a decade ago the tag that Revolut had was that of a cool fintech Mhm. and it probably is a very cool fintech today as well I'm sure. >> Why probably it is? No it is it is but but we are not looking at Revolut as a startup anymore. It's got a global scale it's an enterprise at large it's a global platform. Could you talk to me about any inflection points that you may have observed in the journey from going from a young cool fintech startup to a global platform and did you see did did you

notice any particular attributes like maybe product velocity or distribution of pricing or maybe even trust that really created this change globally and helped you this I mean I think it's one of the fastest growing companies that I've noticed globally in terms of fintechs. Yes yes we're valued at $72 the second highest valued fintech higher valued than a lot of banks UK based banks like your Barclays NatWest etc. where Revolut is today valued higher than that the second highest valued fintech globally in just the space of 10

years in a decade that is exceptional even if I do say so myself. Now brilliant question Abhay about what would have been the inflection points. To me inflection points occur in any uh corporate or enterprises journey is when you're meaningfully able to win over first consumers love. Mhm. Then the consumers trust and then the consumers confidence. And the three are independent things. >> Yeah. I think the first inflection point happened is when Revolut meaningfully won over the love of consumers by not

just being a player that offered efficient forex solutions but became synonymous with global lifestyle. Mhm. By making ourselves a product of a lifestyle choice and essential travel companion for the global traveler I think we managed to win over the hearts of consumers. That was probably the first inflection point. The second inflection point when the love translated to trust is when we decided to not just be a forex player and a fintech but to spread the across the length and breadth of financial services and do it by taking banking

licenses. Mhm. Today we're a bank in 30 countries. Right. So when you're a bank licensed by regulators in multiple countries able to offer all banking solutions in a digital form to consumers is when consumers meaningfully start to trust you. Mhm. So, I think that was the second inflection point. And the third inflection point around winning over consumer confidence that yes, this company will be able to deliver on what they are promising Mhm. happened when we were able to industrialize unit economics at scale. Makes a lot of sense. The fact that

every individual consumer in terms of their lifetime value can be a profitable consumer while you as a company are a value-adding company to that customer is the heart of the unit economics. Mhm. And when you can industrialize that at scale over 70 million customers across 40 countries is when you get the confidence that yes, this company can do it. So, I think those would have been the inflection points which are sitting behind the success that we got so far and posing us for similar success over the next decade across our ambition of

doing the same across 100 countries. Now, I'm looking forward to that, right? I'm very excited about the India launch as well. Oh, yeah. Uh but also coming to India or rather once I leave before India as well, I also want to understand you spoke about how Revolut's journey and the inflection points went from being multi-currency effects and travel and then into banking licenses which brought in a lot more trust and then spoke about the unit economics. So, then I'm thinking about how from a consumer lens it went from international spends money transfers to

then daily saving habits and subscription bundling and so on and so forth, right? What exactly was the core wedge according to you or is still the core wedge when it comes to these consumers because at large Revolut is known as a financial super app which provides everything finance, right? To to the end consumer. But is there a core wedge that you think or is a combination of all? I think the core hook Mhm. for which consumers still come to us is actually what you said, which is the forex proposition. There aren't too many non

uh digital bank forex players that are able to offer the kind of rates and time at which we allow conversions across currencies across different countries. Mhm. So, I think that's the hook with which a consumer comes in. Mhm. But the core wedge which keeps consumers hooked to us and keeps them coming back every day to make this their everyday app of choice across the world is because we have taken that to cover the entire financial life of our consumer. Starting from managing their budgeting and analytics on their account to managing their

entire families' account and spends and giving them a unified view to giving them an experience across forex to savings to investments, I think that is what is difficult for anybody else to replicate and which is the wedge because of which consumers stick with us and we see the kind of activity rates that we do. That's fantastic. So, in other words, this is also the the most unique uh element that is what keeps Revolut going as the preferred choice for the consumers. Right? I would say that, yes.

Fair. Uh I I want to get into some specifics about the India market now, right? I'm very excited about this. Uh India is considered a tough market and we have just discussed that as well. For good reason. Very, very tough market. Uh UPI is almost a baseline now. I mean, everyone uses UPI. I don't think so that More than 500 million customers at last count. Exactly. And now it's globalizing as well. >> Yes. So, when you uh enter a market like India and you have got all your licenses for PPI instruments of various kinds,

right? You mentioned about uh forex cards to uh UPI-based wallets uh to Visa prepaid and so on and so forth and multi-currency cards as well. So, when when you talk about these elements, what from a consumer standpoint or from a consumer lens, what does day one of Revolut in India look like? Day one of Revolut, as I kind of touched upon, the everyday spending account is what consumers will get on day one. So, when a consumer in India downloads the Revolut app and

onboards themselves >> Right. what they get is a digital wallet account which they can link to any of their bank accounts today and pull in funds and keep it in that account. So, I would say a consumer, if they manage their spends, let's say monthly spends of whatever amount that they have in thousands or in lakhs, they can keep that in this account. Mhm. Right? This account is integrated with UPI on day one. Right. >> So, consumers can seamlessly make QR

code-based payments at all the merchants that accept UPI payments in India. Mhm. They can also send peer-to-peer money transfers using phone numbers just like by using the UPI rails. And over and above that, just like in a bank account, when you open a bank account, you get a debit card along with it, you actually get a card along with this account as well. Got it. And more than a debit card, it's actually a rewarding card. So, it actually gives credit card-like rewards on the card that comes linked with this wallet which the consumers can use for domestic

spends and get rewarded. Makes a lot of sense. >> Along with that, whenever that consumer wishes to travel overseas and is in the need of a multi-currency card, they can take that card against the same app. Mhm. And that card is freely usable across the world Mhm. and they will get cross-currency conversions at some of the most competitive rates the world or Indians have seen. Third, all of this again on day one itself, not just restricted to the main user who's applying for the app, but also extendable to their families.

Mhm. >> So, consumers on day one itself can open their kids' account for a kid who's between 8 to 18 years of age Mhm. and give their kids the chance to get introduced to finance, to the entire world of budgeting, saving, spending with the parent remaining in control and knowing about what their kid is doing with the account. So, it is this entire holistic proposition that is going to that has already hit the Indian markets for consumers here from day one. Fantastic. Uh We spoke about

such a diverse set of offerings from day one itself. Uh and but UPI is anyways one of the strongest baselines that that we talk about, right? We have more than 500 million people using it. Is there a particular reason why Revolut is launching in India at this point in time? Is there something more strategic uh that you'd like to share from a consumer lens point of view as to why India becomes a prominent market at this point in time?

So, India becomes a prominent market because of the history of what has happened over the last decade or so and you named it, UPI, right? The fact that the Indian consumers have already got educated Mhm. on making digital payments and it is an everyday use case across from metros to rural India, uh consumers of all ages from young adults to senior citizens have all learned what this is about and this has become a habit already. Mhm. Now, Indians are poised at that

inflection point to become more demanding Mhm. and wanting to see a similar experience even for global. Makes a lot of sense. Which is why the time is right for a global company to come in and show the differentiation that is possible Mhm. even when that consumer wants to spend overseas and bring in a similar experience and not start from scratch in terms of educating on what digital is all about. Right. Today in India, we have 85% of consumers already on some digital financial app or the other. True.

Which creates that first baseline that the soil is already fertile to now come and plant in the seeds and it'll hopefully blossom quickly. No, I'm sure. You you are also very categorically mentioned, if I'm not wrong, 20 million consumers by 2030 in India. That's our target, yes. Yeah. So, there there a bunch of these use cases that you just spoke about. Any particular use case that you think is going to be the first bit in terms of the mass adoption to get to 20 million? Even in India, just like Revolut's core DNA overseas, our core hook will be

around disrupting forex. Because as you rightly pointed out, the domestic payments has been baselined, right? Now, it's stable stakes. Right. Right? But we're the only player who along with domestic payments is able to offer forex disruption. Mhm. So, I think that will be the differentiating factor Mhm. that the global Indians who have friends and family overseas, whose kids are going to study overseas or they they want to travel overseas as well, I think that Indian will naturally have an affinity for our product. And when it comes to their domestic everyday use cases, we

don't want them to look anywhere else. It's the same app on which you can aggregate it all. Mhm. And then again, the same segment of Indians, why go through the entire pain of applying for a credit card and giving your salary statement and things like that and waiting to see whether you're approved or not, when you're approved, what limit is approved for you, etc. I think every Indian deserves to have a rewarding card. So, that wherever and whenever they're paying, they stand to get the benefit of using that card to make the payment. So,

I think that is the audience that will have highest affinity for our product. Makes a lot of sense. So, uh Prumai, if I'm not wrong and probably I'm putting a very different lens right now. I'm really curious to know this. Is there is the secret sauce the technology integration, the tech algorithms with which you are able to make it so easy for consumers to not furnish a lot of paperwork on each different application because of your own scoring internal scoring mechanisms. I'm just very curious about this. Before the technology, I would say I'll

actually say the secret sauces are licenses and the way we look at it. Mhm. Right? If you look at the financial landscape in India, I would broadly say there are two types of companies. One are the banks who have the licenses traditionally to do it, but they have decades and decades of legacy and history in the way they look at the licenses and therefore the way in which they operate, asking consumers to fill up pages and pages of forms and data and visit physical branches, etc. Right. Right? On the other hand, you have tech

companies, most of whom have not really taken their own licenses, but use themselves as a layer or an aggregator or a tech envelope around products that are still manufactured by the banks. Giving access to all banks bank account using a tech Giving a loan which is actually given by a bank. Doing the application using a tech app. Makes sense. As an example. Or being a third-party payments operator where the money is actually kept with the consumer's bank account, but you're just creating a pipe to enable the

consumers to make the payment. That's what the landscape is like. Yeah. If you think about it, there is nobody else who has thought of it completely tech or digital first. Mhm. Has taken their own licenses and then interpreted the license in their own way to go and say, "How do we keep the spirit of the license and offer the product ourselves, but in a completely end-to-end digital manner?" Mhm. I think that thought process is the secret sauce, which again is also very difficult to replicate.

Makes a lot of sense. Is that one of your key strategies when you look at players like Paytm, Google Pay, PhonePe, etc., who are now using UPI-based wallets, but the differentiator for Revolut in India, apart from the base and UPI, would be these value adds I wouldn't call them value adds. They are all consumer behavior. If you think about yourself, you would probably be using one of these three apps that you mentioned. Right? For your domestic QR payments. But you would likely have a card which is issued by a different bank or a company which

you use for high value spends and to accumulate rewards. When you're going overseas, you would also think about taking some other third-party product for your forex transactions. So there is nobody else who gives you that domestic payment ease that you spoke about of the three players along with the card and along with the forex and along with your kids account all in one single app. Makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. That is completely the secret It It is a strategic play that that we've played. In other countries, it's worked out and

that is the play that we played in India and that's what we also had the patience for. Mhm. You might be wondering what we've been doing in the over the last couple of years because we decided to enter the market a few years ago. Right. Right? But what we decided to do after entering the market is to therefore take these individual licenses that are needed to launch this product. Mhm. Then build out all of these products. Then integrate all of them into one single consumer user experience on the app. Mhm. Then test it out thoroughly with our internal employees and then we're

releasing it on the market. That's what we had the patience to do all this while. Hopefully that will be a winning product, but the jury will be out. Hopefully consumers will love us for it as well as the regulators will have confidence on us for it. That's fantastic. Speaking of consumer love, wanted to tap into this as well. You spoke that globally consumer love was aggregated over a period of time by providing them seamless convenience when it came to international spends, a lot of other aspects. Then it got into a trust when

you spoke about unit economics at scale, right? From an India consumer lens standpoint, what kind of trust stack do you intend on building and how do you intend on building that? I think one of the advantages has been that we've taken on board the learnings that Revolut has had over the last decade across the other 40 countries and hopefully try to do it right for India. For example, on day one, like I said, we decided to approach by applying for our own licenses. Mhm. Right? And the fact that we're introducing an RBI-regulated product

here in India, I think that itself should start us off with a trust score being high. Secondly, from a product or a user lens, then you'll realize I mean, I don't know if you've joined the waitlist. If I did. I did. Please do so. When you're We already have more than 4 and 1/2 lakh people on the waitlist, so I thank everybody for their patience. It's going to take us a while to clear everybody, but and it does, you'll realize on the app itself, you will see completely transparently the flow of your money

just like you see the flow of your goods on any commerce app. When you've ordered a food delivery or a ride-hailing service, the way you can see where the food is being prepared, somebody's going to pick it up or in any commerce service, your goods have been packaged and they're out for delivery, etc., etc. It is that tech first thought process which has come into financial services on our app. You'll be able to see how your money is moving at any point of time. Right. What you're being charged anywhere, what is the breakup of those charges? So we've opened the hood to try

and make it transparent for the consumer. That I think is going to be another novelty which should earn us the trust because it's the one place where consumers will really be able to see what's happening with their money. Because particularly if you think about forex as an example, right? Today, if you were to do a forex transaction with a bank, right? Most of us have our heart in our mouth. Yeah. >> Because it is a sizeable magnitude of transaction that you do. Once the amount has been debited from your account, but you don't have any

visibility to where your money is at any given point of time, how much is being charged till the time that you see a certain credit happen in the beneficiary account. Yeah. Very true. Imagine what we do when we open that up and tell you that your money is here. This is how much has gone in the conversion. Right. >> This is where it is now and this is when it is going to go into that account. So that transparency on in the product and user experience itself, I think hopefully should earn us a lot more consumer trust. And third, again, I think we're a

beneficiary of the banking legacy. Like I said, out of the 40 countries that we're present in, 30 of them we're a bank. Right. And therefore, despite in India being a payments company, we actually have bank-grade security. Mhm. Which is over and above what is needed for a payments company in India. Makes sense. >> So our onboarding, the consumer checks, the sanctions checks, for example, for any user to have a Revolut app, we'll not just be checking them for the sanctions list that RBI asked us to check. We'll be checking them beyond

that for the UN sanctions list, OFAC sanctions list, all of that. So that anybody that we onboard would be worthy of being onboarded anywhere in the world. Fantastic. That's amazing. >> So you know, creating that bank-grade level of security across every level on transaction monitoring, on fraud alerts, on enhanced due diligence, etc., I think should get us some a lot more comfort to consumers that somebody who's on Revolut is hopefully likely to be a trustworthy consumer as well when they're

interacting within the system. Peer network. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. In fact, I love the product provenance point because being in the innovation space for years, I've been talking to different stakeholders across different industries about the need for product provenance, which more often than not is not a top priority for a lot of sectors, a lot of industries. >> it's it's a top priority item for us, for sure. As a matter of fact, if I can share with you, my first hire in India, who's still

here, was my head of risk and compliance. Fantastic. >> got the risk and compliance team to come in first to set the boundaries and framework and then we brought in the product managers and the ops folks to go and innovate. Mhm. As I keep saying, it's like you can become a master of the game once you know the rules. Makes sense. >> Right? If you're going out to play cricket, you need to draw out the pitch first or the where the boundary is. Or if you're going to play tennis or

badminton, you need to draw out the court and know what the boundaries are. Then go and play your best game. So the guardrails came in first before the product was built. Fantastic. >> Exactly. That's fantastic. That's so so exciting for me to hear this and because I don't see a lot of leaders talking about this, right? And this being called it out so clearly. >> I think we do a disservice when we don't give it due importance as leaders. If we don't give regulations it's due importance, we do a disservice to the

industry as well as to consumers. So I do hope more leaders, particularly in financial services, where you're dealing with people's hard-earned money at the end of the day. We're very conscious of why the regulations are there in the best interests of the consumer and therefore innovate within that. That's amazing to hear. In fact, we spoke about the You spoke about the two years gestation period to build everything out in the best way possible, test it out internally with the employees and then launching it soon. I wanted to talk to you about this

two-year period of building it out. Did you see any strategic advantages of building something out in India? I mean, is this product now or some component of this technology product combination is shippable globally from India? Of course, that is a matter of personal pride here. One, the fact that UPI is the first local rail that we integrated into our product, which gave us the confidence that we can actually integrate Revolut into local payment rails in various countries. Right? I I just gave this as an example, but even the fraud controls, the financial

transaction processing, monitoring, etc. that I spoke about, a lot of the analysts and engineers are here based right here in India. The talent from here is building this for the world. And while building it for India, even onboarding is unique in India, right? Which is an Aadhaar-based onboarding, video KYC, etc. All of that has been built in India. So then these components suddenly making a global corporation of the size and scale of Revolut becoming aware of these innovations that can happen from India.

And already talks are in about seeing whether any of these modules are reusable anywhere else in the world. That gives you a lot of pride. And second is the sheer talent quotient. The fact that all of this made the company realize their eyes open to the sheer quality of talent, whether it is product, engineering, operations, strategy that is available from India is the other matter of pride. That it is not just a place where you set up a GCC for back office operations. It is a place which is your brain, which is your think tank for you, for your global

operations is who we are. And it is the I'm proud to say it is the think tank of Revolut globally sitting right here in India. Goosebumps moments for me because I I I the whole conversation of the whole show, podcast is based about building from India for the world. And you're saying that 40% of the global workforce are building from India for Revolut globally and for the millions of consumers, right? 70 plus million consumers, right? Contributing to a part of that is so fantastic to hear. In fact, I did want to talk about

partnerships as well because partnerships are such an important function. In fact, one of the recent posts of yours also spoke about a very promising partnership that I'm excited about is with the Audi F1 team as well. And you spoke about this yourself saying that these partnerships are beyond the generic sponsorships. They're more synergistic because now Audi will also be doing everything finance with Revolut, right? Similarly, when we speak about other companies like let's say a Meta or a Google, they were quite companies in India, even

an Adobe and I've known some of these founders too. And that has become a part of their key stake, sorry, key stacks as well, tech stacks as well. In this scenario, how do you look at Revolut's innovation journey in India? Do you see potential partnerships with startups or other players in the country? Let me split it into some two, three parts, okay? First of all, yes, you're right. We don't look at partnerships as a logo sponsorship topic.

Right? A partnership, when it has to happen, has to happen for a reason. It is a more integrated partnership, like a marriage. There has to be a reason and synergies and values and what you want to do together. Right? Now, coming to dividing the kinds of needs for which you can have partnerships, and a lot of people have asked me this as well. For core product deployment, Revolut does not look at partnerships. What I meant is a lot of fintechs you will see getting into partnerships with banks or others to have a quicker

go-to-market. You would see we've been patient over the last two, three years. If we wanted to, we could have hit the market by just partnering with some bank and launching the app in India. That is not Revolut. We will want to take our own licenses, build out our own products, create our own consumer experience, and then offer it to customers, okay? So that's on core products. Now, the second thing is, along with the core products, I spoke about cards and benefits that you want to offer. Now,

those benefits have to come from the consumer's own life. Like what a consumer does, right? Whether it is a ride-hailing for an airport drop, right? Or an airline they choose to travel on, or where they wish to shop, right? Or where food delivery service that the consumer wants to avail of, or places that the consumer wants access to. Right. Now, those are not our core products. Those are ancillary, but to the life of our core consumer. Makes sense.

>> So there we can look at having meaningful partnerships. Makes sense. So maybe the loyalty stack is yours, but the reward stack is something in partnership with a bunch of potentially local reward partners. >> want to put it that way, yes. And that is something where there is another edge that I might want to talk about here is, given the fact that we're global, we have partnerships like this everywhere in the world. Very >> Which gives consumers from one geography access to such partnerships elsewhere.

Very true. So for example, an Indian traveling to UK can get access to let's say a um a a London Eye ticket discount. Makes sense. Right? >> Makes a lot of sense. Because otherwise, as only single geography companies, you tend to give offers only pertaining to your geography. But being able to cross-pollinate and leverage even the partnerships that exist across is another advantage which we can bring to consumers. Makes a lot of sense. In fact, your understanding what consumer

insights because of being present in so many countries and how that cross-pollination happens because of international spends will also be very, very strong to build a very strong loyalty and rewards ecosystem. Yeah, that I also believe in. In order to build a good product, you can be a good product tech manager. But in order to build a great product, you need to be a consumer insights manager. Right. You need to know your consumer, really know your consumer. You need to know where they like spending their time,

where they like spending their money. You need to understand what the gaps are in their life. And you need to be passionate about improving your consumer's life beyond being passionate about in causing incremental change in your product. Makes a lot of sense. So speaking about consumer insights and the patterns around this uh when we speak about the future of money, future of banking, future of finance at large, and catering to India, where do you see the spending pattern evolving into?

Uh that's definitely a deep question, Abhay, because yes, as being insiders in this industry, I'm noticing how spending patterns are changing and particularly with the changing demographics, particularly in India. We now have a high population of Gen Zs, millennials. Our younger population is higher and and growing by the year. And from the time that we grew up, yeah, unfortunate to disclose my age, but when we were growing up, a roti, kapda, makan was still a thing. People were spending on their bare necessities

around putting food on the table, housing, and the the basic infrastructure there, and basic clothing, where the festival spending and things like that is what we grew up with. Now, the nature of consumption is actually moving more towards luxury aspirations in keeping with the aspirations of a growing country. Consumers are spending on affordable luxury, whether it is in terms of the accessories, electronics, gadgets, wearables, uh cosmetics,

personal care products, a home care products, home furnishing products, etc. So I think spending on luxury and affordable luxury is going to become a big thing. And you notice a lot of brands coming into that space as well. That's one. The second pattern of spending that we're observing is a lot of spending on travel and international travel in particular, which is supported by other phenomena like a lot of countries becoming visa-free or visa-accessible or electronic e-visas which just take you a

day to get. And a lot of airline routes across various international locations coming up. A lot of awareness because of social media on destinations, etc., etc. A lot of content out there. So travel-related spends is really jumping up. That's the second area. The third area we're noticing the spending pattern change on is around whole wellness and care as a concept. People are now spending a lot more on their gym classes and their yoga, even your yoga retreats and nutrition and diet and organic diet

and things like that are coming up around spending on the entire health and wellness space where people have become conscious. The fourth is um This is a trend around beyond just health and wellness, I see this is an encouraging trend in the younger generation. They seem to be more conscious about climate and sustainability and nano local entrepreneurs. And there's a trend of being okay with paying a premium if a product is sustainable versus a product that is detrimental to

the earth. So sustainability or to encourage local industry, Right. right? People are willing to spend a little bit extra on that. Makes sense. >> These are the four common trends that I see among youngsters. And among the slightly older people, if you will, I see a trend on wanting to spend a lot more on their children's education, including being open to sending them overseas and spending a lot more. Education itself in the country is also becoming more expensive, higher education, but with a lot more Indians willing to spend a lot more on that, as

well as on specialized health care and procedures, whether it is cosmetology to even addressing organs and diseases which earlier people would leave it to fate to deal with. Today, they're proactively consumers are looking at procedures to take care of their health. I think those are the four, five very material ways in which we are seeing the spending pattern evolve in our country. That was fantastic to hear. In fact, uh I've been noticing a lot of these changes, too, of late in close vicinity with family members, etc.

Uh these younger family members are now traveling internationally a lot lot lot more. I mean, it's become a very obvious >> mean, you know, I mean, if I can narrate when I I started working, Mhm. the first international holiday I took on my own paycheck was after being 7 8 years in at least into the workforce and that was also pretty quick by most standards. Mhm. Today, I see people fresh out of campus starting to work for me in the first year they want to take a vacation and with their friends they're going somewhere overseas. True. That's the change that

has happened in these last two decades. True. And affordable luxury is another fantastic one that you spoke about because when I look at expendable money, it's not that they're extravagant in their spending patterns. They are spending much better than what probably I would have when I was in my 20s. Uh but I also notice that, you know, they are always looking out for interesting deals, reward mechanisms to, you know, tap into that and not be frugal, but at the same time not be extravagant in their spending

patterns either. Very well observed, Abhay. Yes. Right. So, I did also talk into this since we're talking about international spends, uh the government recently released their budget and we were one of the points in the budget was also about >> Recently yesterday. Yeah, yesterday. I So, I've just been reading so much of it that but yeah, yesterday and the government has been talking about uh you know, new clauses and certain policy changes which have

>> around TCS and taxes >> around TCS etc., taxes, international spends, medical tourism. Uh Is that going to be one of the areas that will also help Revolut because one of the four reasons >> 100% 100%. I think overall the fact that the government has taken cognizance of this phenomenon of international travel going up which is supported by education and health care primarily as well as business related travel overseas and trying to make it frictionless or reduce the friction

whether it is in terms of charges Mhm. or taxes or the time that it takes, I think is a very very good sign and that is our core competence and our USB. So, we're hopeful of that being able to be good tailwinds as we launch. Fantastic. Speaking of the future again, when we talk about global finance and you are a global financial leader, you've won I mean, you've been a global leader, right? If I'm not wrong for last four or five years, you've also won the top 100 most influential women in the world, right? So, when you when you look sorry, While I

don't personally believe in rankings of this sort, yes, it is very humbling to be for your work to be acknowledged on a global stage, yes. You know, a lot of lot of people in India including me, we look up to you to you know, to to give us a little bit of a vision and direction about how this world is changing, right? Because the world is evolving so fast. In fact, that's exactly what I wanted to talk to you about and get your perspective and by 2030 with so much of changes in the

technology stacks that we are talking about. We are talking about tokenization, we are talking about embedded finance, we are talking about changing in the way we look at finance and spending and so on and so forth. What are probably two or three key shifts that you'll probably see in the global finance ecosystem? Wow. Loaded question on this one, Abhay. I don't have a crystal ball, unfortunately, but if you're asking me what my Mhm. personal predictions are, number one, I think we're going to enter into

an era of gen AI-based hyper-personalization. Mhm. Right? Historically, across the world, across industries as a matter of fact, it first moved from a manufacturer-driven one product to you consumer, take it or leave it, to mass customization which is basically identifying different segments and trying to create variants of your product based on segments to I think in the next four to five years, we're going to move to customizing for the individual. Mhm. And that is being made possible by

AI, ML, generative AI where I can have specific information about Abhay and give him a very specific tailored product >> Right. for his or her own needs. Right. Right? So, that I think is one trend that is going to become mainstream. The second, I think, what you refer to as embedded finance, I'm very very bullish about that personally because I don't think finance will continue to remain a destination where consumers consciously think about where they're going to go and where they're going to apply and

where it is going to come from, but the financial services companies are going to work that much harder to embed it seamlessly into a consumer's life. Mhm. Um It's it's already happened to some extent, right? Um We when we started our careers, we were still used to flagging down that cab on the road, Mhm. carrying a purse with cash in it after finishing your trip, taking your money out and paying them for it. Very true. My son today orders a cab from an app, just boards it when he gets the alert that the cab is there,

gets off at his destination, the payment is taken care of somewhere from from behind behind the scenes. Right? Likewise, when they order groceries at home or order food at home, they just order at the tap of a button, the product or the service reaches them, the payment gets taken care of seamlessly at the back and it's not something that they're consciously thinking about. I think that phenomenon is going to go even further into embedded technology. Mhm. Think refrigerator. Mhm. Right? When the stock is depleting the refrigerator placing

the order by itself onto some app that has been integrated with it and the payment getting deducted from behind. Why not? Very much a possibility. Think fuel. Car walking being run into fuel station, fuel being filled whether it's an EV getting charged, car moving away, payment getting taken care of behind the scenes. Why not? Very much a possibility. So, I actually think finance is going to become even more embedded and behind the scenes in the next four five years. The third thing you referred to tokenization as well. I'll add another

dimension to it. I think because of tokenization, more fractional investments and ownership is going to become a phenomenon. Mhm. So, earlier, for example, even now to a large extent, if you intend to own property or own assets, it's it's a large value transaction. Right? So, a lot of people still cannot think about doing it. Very true. And it is therefore underserved. But with tokenization, fractional ownership Mhm. becomes really real. That same property Mhm. which is, let's say, worth two crores, today you can't think of taking

it. Mhm. if it is broken down among 10 people who can have fractional ownership, everybody has 20 lakhs worth of ownership there. Will become a reality with tokenization. So, I think if you ask me, top three will be those hyper-personalization, completely embedded everyday finance, and tokenization tokenization leading to fractional ownerships of assets, I think would be the three most defining changes that we'll witness in the next four five years. That's amazing to hear. That's also personally very satisfying to hear

because in some senses of it, I've been involved at the cusp of all three over the last decade. Uh Then the other prediction is Abhay Tandon will be wildly successful beyond anybody else's imagination. No, that's very kind of you. I wish I do hope that comes true. You can decide what to do with that quote, keep it or snap it. No, for sure. Uh you know, jokes apart, uh back in '21, uh 2020 rather, the onset of COVID, I

got a hyper-real avatar created on top of my avatar, right? It was not >> This is 2020. 2020 onset of COVID before hyper-real AI even became a term. It became much more famous in India because of Rephrase creating that not just a Cadbury ad with Shah Rukh Khan, but prior to that, I had I had my own hyper-real AI avatar. It failed the Turing test back in the day because even for the shoot, I had to shave off my beard, remove my specs to uh you know, to fine-tune the model to a degree where it was able to understand my eye

movements, tonality, facial expressions and so on and so forth. It still failed the Turing test. Eventually, it got it's got much better and I deployed that at TVS as well where we were able to use this for marketing and reach outs or communication with the potential consumers a lot better which meant that instead of having standardized messaging going across to all the consumers, now there was a lot of one-on-one personalized messaging or one-on-many personalized messaging across channels like WhatsApp or YouTube. YouTube was very geolocation

specific which meant that if someone is in Koramangala, they would obviously all see the same TVS ad which was referring to a destination in Koramangala. Uh versus when we are talking about referencing a customer's interaction on the website of TVS Motor Company and showing interest in one of the particular variants of a product and probably needing financial assistance, Mhm. the messaging was very curated in the form of a video which was hyper-personalized to that person's choices and probable probable challenges as well. Yeah. So,

>> Absolutely. Like imagine today if you were to since we were talking about the property example, if you were to want to buy a home, Mhm. home loan today has standard rates. Like, okay, there's fixed and floating and there's a bit of variability there, but it's standard rates. Right. But imagine your home loan getting personalized to you based on the property you're purchasing, to your own personal past behavior, your rate is specific only to you. Your rate tenor fee combination is all personalized to that. That is a possibility, realistic possibility

today. Very true. >> You know, sharing some other anecdotes, we've seen some studies, for example, depending on the geography, the color of the car defines its propensity of accidents. So imagine Color of the car, the demographic profile of the person who's driving it, that combination actually can predict your chances of safe driving or visa v accident. Imagine that data getting fed into defining an insurance premium for you. Exactly. >> So for the same car, identical model, based on where it is getting purchased

or the color that is being chosen as a combination of who the buyer is, the premium can be tailored. Today all of this can become a reality. In fact, at TVS >> personalization. Exactly. At TVS we were trying to build out a metaverse. I was leading that project and I wanted to make it highly functional in nature. So what we were trying to do was get all the information from driving patterns to you know, to their spare parts warranties and so on and so forth, their regular servicing and so on and so

forth. Combine those to provide a real-time second-hand value of the vehicle as well as indicating the real-time insurance premium numbers as well. >> Yeah, see I realized the auto example will resonate more with you than the financial services. No, no, but this is so true. I mean I I I I I love those three points. I'm sure the consumers will really tap into this which also brings me to the next point. How do you suggest you know, there are a lot of young builders in India who are trying to you know, build various

interesting products in the space of fintech as well. Any advice to them around how they can disrupt this particular space? This I can go on and on, but if I were to keep it brief, we kind of touched upon this first is I also see a lot of young founders being product first. Mhm. They have seen some product in action and they kind of focus their energies on um how can I improve something about this product? My strong advice to the young audience that may be listening to this is

try not to think product first, but think consumer first. Mhm. Right? Just go out there rather than being on your laptop and coding, go out there. Walk out in the streets. Watch the life of your user. Mhm. What are they doing? What is bothering them? And identify a need that is waiting to be disrupted. Which is an actual need. So if you manage to build a proposition that which is meaningfully improving your consumer's life you will build a product and a consequent company and a legacy for life. Versus just looking at the

products out there and tweaking them and trying to just improve a layer on that. That would probably be my single biggest advice to youngsters now. Fantastic. The second one, that that's for founders around the world. The second is for those of you who are beginning your work lives. Mhm. Right? Um I have done this in the past and been a beneficiary of it and therefore sharing this. Pick jobs or assignments based on the scope of what it allows you to do and not based on designation and paycheck. Mhm.

Very true. That's the other I I see a lot of youngsters being fussed about oh, am I getting senior product manager? Am I getting mid product manager becoming a deciding factor. Very true. Is my paycheck 20 lakhs versus 24 lakhs that is a deciding factor. Yeah. That is of least consequence when you will think back on it a decade or two decades down the line. What will be of consequence is what was the problem you were given to solve and what you did with it. Period. No, that makes a lot of sense. Both

these advices are so valuable and I think people, especially Gen Zs should really focus on this a lot more. >> Yeah, if you have a Gen Z audience who are listening in and even if out of your 100,000 followers if if a thousand of them take this advice to heart, I think I'd be very happy about that. No, for sure. I mean at least the stats that I've seen shows that the audience about 70% of them are in the age group of 18 to 35. >> There you go. So this should be very

mean very very meaningful for them because this is something that you know, as a millennial, I think was very inherently embedded in my value system and how I approach things at least in the initial journey of my career as well. But something that I see sometimes missing in a lot of in a lot of Gen Zs today. Um But thank you so much for sharing that. In fact, I do want to also understand a little bit more about your past journey, right? I mean there's been you've been a leader in companies like Flipkart,

Airtel Money, Lendingkart. Could you talk to us about any particular you know pivotal moment across these organizations which has led you to be where you are in terms of impact creation today? If you ask me about my personal inflection point, Abhay, I think it is when um mid-career I decide I I started my career as you know, in banking. Right. For banking, post MBA with uh first ICICI Bank and then Kotak

Mahindra Bank. I could have chosen to have a career throughout in traditional banking. It was going well. There was no need to disrupt it. But back in 2010 when I made the decision to join Airtel to launch mobile money. Mhm. Just I've said this earlier, but if you hark back to that time, this was the era of your butt push button small phones, right? >> Right, right. There was no such thing as mobile payments. It didn't even exist except in M-Pesa in far-off Kenya. Mhm. >> about giving up a steady traditional

banking career to join a ragtag bunch of innovators and disruptors to figure out how do we get this mobile phone as an instrument of finance finance and payments and deciding to do that I think would be my personal inflection point. That is fantastic. That's so beautiful and I think I'm you know, I was just talking to you about another potential another leader that I had brought in my show earlier, Mabel Chacko and how I look up to her as well. Oh, brilliant. So so there you go.

I didn't know about this backstory, but this is such an exciting point in time because I come from innovation background. So I love these kind of stories a lot more. They're very close to heart because it shows that certain leaders have that vision to put themselves at a place where while the rest of the world says that you do you potentially putting yourself in the harms way or in a very very high risky situation, you have the vision to call out that this is a potential winner in the future. So doing that, joining

Airtel Money back in the day and taking that call, I think is fantastic. Thanks, Abhay. But more than vision, let me just say this. I mean we were talking about this earlier. We are all humans, right? I was also like a young probably a 30-year-older at point of time, right? It's it's nothing fancy like a big vision or something came in my dreams that you know, I could do this. It's it's nothing like that. I think the word that I would probably like to use is

gumption. Mhm. Gumption is right. >> It's just having the gumption to want to try out something new. Mhm. Not knowing whether it'll work or not, but knowing that if it does, it has the potential to really impact millions. Mhm. And if it doesn't, so what? You tried your best to make it happen. And when you go in with just that thought process Mhm. I think more things happen. That's the magic. There's no rocket science vision or dream behind that. No, no, that that's very well put across. I mean gumption is something

that you really sometimes over it under index. But that that's so critical in how we take decisions today or we should ideally. Yeah, I mean I think the one lesson if we all manage to learn in life is how to overcome fear. Mhm. That's possibly the biggest lesson in any walk of life. True. I I I should probably know a little bit about this considering that my name Abhay means fearless. >> Yes, there you go. So I should ideally know about this. But

coming to another very interesting point, right? We since we're talking a lot to the younger generation out there, you have you mentioned about 3,400 odd employees at W. >> 3,600 I think as per January salaries paid. Okay. So 3,600, how do you maintain that high performance culture in the DNA of Revolut India considering you know, it's while it's a global company, there's going to be some global rigor, but there's also going to be a lot of Indian centricity keeping in mind the consumers of India. At the same time, there's

going to be the Gen Z aspect also coming in. How do you create that kind of a balance and create a high performance DNA? It's hard. It's very hard. It's like walking over coals. But jokes apart again, let me divide this into two, okay? One is the product orientation or outcome orientation of the people and the second is to keep up the motivation and level of performance of the people. And the two are slightly different. I'll tell you why I'm saying that.

Um the first one, yes, the biggest challenge is that um a global DNA and a global way of doing it, especially for a company as wildly successful as Revolut to be able to adapt that for local needs a lot of energy goes in that and that is something that I urge everybody in India to focus on. And I think if global companies manage to do that successfully in terms of retaining the core of their global DNA that has made them who they are, but effectively localizing it for the needs of the local consumers and the

local regulators is the other secret source of succeeding in multiple varied regional geographies. And that is a constant everyday ongoing process. Like half my day possibly goes in that. Okay. On every single product. Right? Because in any product, we don't want it to be just the global product cookie cutter gone and um thrown into the Indian landscape without contextualizing it for India. Mhm. Likewise, we don't want to launch something which is just like any other Indian product which doesn't have any semblance of Revolut is not going to

work. Mhm. So, that balancing act is really really important. And embedding that into every employee is really really important. Mhm. Now, coming to the high-performance culture as well. I think over there our edge lies in our hiring. Mhm. We have a bare minimum five-stage hiring process for anybody, even for the junior most executive, and it goes to seven stage hiring process for senior executives. But, we believe in hiring A players. And in that, what we look for more than

experience is actually a problem-solving orientation. Mhm. So, if you manage to bring in people who want to come in to solve problems then a lot of this comes into place. True. And second, anybody who's constantly looking at raising the bar. Mhm. So, those are the two things we look for in anybody we bring in. Then I personally lead not through control, but through context. Mhm. You bring in such people, empower them,

give them the clarity of what they need to do, and then let them flourish. And you keep the guardrails strong to keep them out of trouble. That's amazing. That's That's actually beautiful and very very leader-like. I know you said that, you know, but in fact, I I want to get into this as well. What is your leadership philosophy? Like I said, I think it is about empowering with clarity. Mhm. I think the job leaders need to do in an organization is to set out the

the vision, the goal, and the objective very very clearly for it for for their people. Mhm. And the second part of the job of a leader is to empower the people who are in the company. If you try to control too much, that can oftentimes leads to throttling the creativity or in a innovation orientation or mindset of of a person. Um So, yeah, being able to effectively empower people to perform by giving them

clear objectives and goals is, I think, description of a leader. Makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, are you being very humble? In fact, I was about to ask you, how do you keep yourself grounded? You're already very humble. But, is there is there any ritual that you do to keep yourself grounded knowing that, you know, while you're you're revolutionizing fintech in the country, you're talking about the future of money in the country, but you still remain grounded? Mhm. Two things if I can share. One in in the

in my work life, the other in my personal life, if you will. In my work life, I consciously make it a point to listen to consumers directly in what they're saying and what their feedback is. Believe it or not, that helps you stay grounded because a lot of times otherwise, you can get so carried away with how your employees treat you, how your partners treat you, what you're doing on the product, and internal milestones and KPIs and goals. But, leaving all of that aside, just listening to what your consumer's saying

about you can keep you grounded because your consumer holds a mirror to you. True. What you've done well and what you've not. And it keeps you constantly um motivated to keep, as I said, winning your consumer's love, trust, and confidence. I think that keeps you grounded. So, I would say that to everybody, whether they're the junior most person starting their career or to a leader who's been helming an organization for a decade, keep listening to your consumers, that keeps you grounded.

The other thing that I do in my personal life is every year I try to carve out a new skill that I learn for myself. Fantastic. Which keeps the child learner within me alive, if you will. Because otherwise, it's easy to slip into the zone of, "Okay, I've accomplished a lot or I have achieved a lot or there are so many people who are working to my directions." It is very easy to slip into that. Mhm. But, to keep yourself grounded, you go and look out at the world. I mean, there is so much to be

discovered, there is so much that we don't know. It is never possible to know everything. So, if you carve out that to go and say, "Okay, I have this new thing to learn." Mhm. Right? That keeps you grounded as a child, I also have things to learn, I also have room to grow. I think those are the two things that I make sure that I do. What do you want to share? What's the current on the list new skill set that you're acquiring? The current new skill set that I'm trying to acquire is um Kannada matter to me. Nice. Nice. Very good.

>> Trying to learn the local language of the place that I call home. No, that that's amazing. I've been surviving all this while with English, Hindi. Yeah. But, yeah, trying to learn the local >> No, that's fantastic. When in Rome, be a Roman. I think it also makes uh conversing with on on the business front also a lot easier, right? Because you understand what's really going on. >> Yeah, I mean, since we're talking about Bangalore, sitting in Bangalore over here, one of the advantages is Bangalore is a very

cosmopolitan place where a lot of us have come from various parts of the country and the world to make this into our home. Mhm. So, English and Hindi keeps you going. I mean, it's kept me going for a decade. But, to truly understand the spirit Yeah. And secondly, working with government institutions or bodies, I think um it doesn't need much, right? Because they also converse in the language. But, if I go to one of the government offices and I start with a "Hey, good day to you" instead of "How are you?" Mhm. I

think it creates a slight bit of a connect more Very true. with the local culture of the place that you've chosen to call your home. No, for sure. In fact, also on your first point, I think it's uh while while you say that, you know, it should be part of your JD or any leader's JD, I personally have noticed a lot of leaders not really you know, applying that, right? There's a lot of bubble that a lot of large consumer companies' CEOs or or leadership That you can't do. That I call the risk of leadership. Mhm. The

more you create a bubble around you, >> Yeah. the more distant both your consumers and your employees and your reality is going to get away from you. >> So, the more effort you can do to prick that bubble and just be out there, know what your consumer is saying directly, know what your junior most employee is saying directly, um is what helps you steer the ship in the right direction. We have actually an open-floor culture. Mhm. Right? Not about, you know, people having cabins based on their designations or anything

like that, so that most people should be comfortable feel comfortable enough to just walk across if they feel they need to discuss anything with anybody. Mhm. Uh second, I personally have a year-mark open-door session. Right? Once in a month where any employee can just book a slot to have a one-on-one conversation with me regardless of their level or the agenda. So, I think some of these things hopefully go a distance in building some bit of a connect and trust with your employees as well. Fantastic. Pramod,

thank you so much for taking our time. I know we have already exceeded the time that you granted me, but I will take five more minutes and we'll have to dwell into a very interesting segment that I've very innovatively called the rapid fire. So, Is there a hamper? Is that still in fashion? I would send you one. I would send you one. I do not have one with me right now, but yes, there's going to be a hamper, so I'm going to send you one as well. Just just for getting those candid

answers from you. Okay. All right. So, let's dive in. Awesome. I'll try and do it with Abhay. Fearlessly. Thank you. So, the first one, here it goes. One fintech product that you admire and not Revolut. Fintech company that I admire, not Revolut? Product product. Yeah. New banks. New banks. Okay. One habit you think Indians will adopt in money management by 2030? Indians I think Indians will go for digital banks as opposed to traditional banks. Fantastic. Your default mode, speed or precision? Precision. I'm more an archer shooter

types rather than a racer types. Makes a lot of sense. Biggest red flag in a startup pitch? Biggest red flag when they come and say, "My product has no competition." True. Biggest career advice that you have ever got? Yeah. Pick a job based on the scope rather than the designation or the compensation. Mhm. One belief you changed your mind about in the last 2 years? That there's going to be consolidation in the financial services industry. I

see a lot of specialized niche players the resurgence of that in the last 2 years, so that stands corrected. Makes sense. If you had a billboard to India's youth, what would it say? Billboard. Uh even the smallest biggest journey started with a single step, so do not despise Monday in work. Fantastic. A book or a podcast that you keep returning to? Uh don't call me a nerd, but Darwin's Origin of Species. Wow, that's very cool. I I studied biotech engineering, so human genetics, so I

love that. No, it it's just such a reflection on how adaptability of the human race or any race and that thought process can be superimposed anywhere. Very true. One thing Revolut India will never do, a A principle? Non-negotiable, never take any shortcuts. Fantastic. The North Star metric for Revolut? North Star metric for Revolut would be active customer engagement. And the last one, innovation in one word or line? Innovation is creativity and creativity

is innovation. Fantastic. Thank you so much. I think that was really, really fast and very, very well answered. Thank you so much for sharing such amazing perspectives, Paroma. Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation. I didn't even realize where the time has flown. You'll have a job editing it to fit your time slot. No, no, we'd love that. But I think the consumers are going to be love this conversation and I think we're all very excited the 4.5 lakh and growing number of waiters that are >> adding about 400 to 500 a day to that as

well. So, it is very humbling the kind of enthusiasm the Indian consumers are already showing about Revolut coming in and we hope to come good on that very, very soon. Very soon is the word. I wish I had the exact date, but it's very soon. So, folks, watch out for Revolut's entry. It's going to be amazing and thank you so much again, Paroma, for sharing time with us and giving us so much of perspective into the future of money as well. Thanks again for having me on the show, Abhay. Thank you.