S2E8: Indian Mythology x Gaming: The Age of Bhaarat ft. Amish Tripathi & Mukul Deora

They start giving death threats and >> they're just pure evil. >> Illegal. >> What do you want audiences to feel just after playing the game? Like >> rapid questions, rapid answers. >> Brother from another mother. >> We're ready. Got to get an Indian game. Got to get an Indian. >> How much fun are we all having? >> We have two amazing guests, Amish Davati and Mul. There are two creative geniuses in one frame. My personal favorite, the White Tiger. >> By design, I wanted to be Oscar

nominated big all over the world. Why did you even think about getting into building Tara gaming? >> Our money is actually going to China. >> In India post RMG $1.5 billion is the Indian gaming industry. In China it's 50 billion. If we can do a black with Wukong with age of Bharat every VC will come to India >> the world of the epics >> doing something from India for the world >> animating it with dharma. We're not going to be disrespectful of our gods and bes >> or a good story but have to have a good

villain. >> We're a land of a billion stories. He was a big ba shiv. He composed the thunder stotra which we [ __ ] chant to this day man this is the final frontier. >> How easy or difficult has it been to hire that kind of a talent in India. >> A gamer is a unforgiving person. >> Actually gaming is the main culture. The rest of us are subcultures. >> I think we have an amazing team. Nuradin Abura he did Tom Clansancy Ghost Recon the most recognizable voice Amitab G. If age or bhat becomes a global phenomenon, what changes for Indian creators?

Hiring still feels risky, not because talent is scarce, but because decisions are fragile. What if hiring work like engineering, clear signals, documentary reasoning, defensible outcomes? Because when hiring is a strategic risk, it deserves infrastructure. This series is sponsored by Rajai, making highend decisions predictable and Arcoms aligned. This show is brought to you by KRS your partner in digital transformation. From cloud innovation to intelligent automation, we redefine enterprise growth, empowering organizations to shape the future with

technology that thinks ahead. Hi everyone. Uh, welcome to the Innovators and Disruptors podcast. My name is Abhand and I'm your host. Uh, and today's conversation is super exciting. It's at the intersection of media, books, movies, music, gaming, and so much and so forth, right? It's it's really exciting. It's a uh it's a world. It's a universe. Let's put it this way. That's that's been very exciting for me personally. And I have two amazing guests. That's a break in the format that we have had this time. But we have two amazing guests who have joined us to

talk to us about the intersection of the creative worlds coming together and creating outcomes that are both uh businessoriented of financial outcomes as well but more than that impact creation at large as well. Right. So for that let me now welcome both the both the guests here today. Amish Davati and Mula. Thank you so much for joining in. >> Thank you. >> Thank Uh I mean I'm everyone knows you both but just for the sake of introducing you properly I'm just going to take a liberty of introducing you both. Uh Amish everyone knows is a very

very famous author. He's uh you know he's the fastest I mean you you've been you have got what 7 million copies if I'm not wrong published in span of 15 years. >> Yeah I think 8 million now. >> 8 million now right. So the numbers outdated. No, but that's amazing, right? >> Can you believe that >> in the history of Indian publishing? Yeah, it's it's it's massive, right? And the numbers keep increasing. So the fastest in the in the country. >> That's only the the legal copy. >> That's only the legal copy.

>> Very important to say. Very important to say. >> 8 million would be I would hazard at least multiples of 8 million. >> You know, uh I remember I because I do college events also. I remember one of the college events I'd had gone to uh this kid came and told me you know sir we love your book so much you know and all colleges and universities have these shared servers right notes are >> he says we have these shared servers where only our notes are supposed to be kept and he showed me the shared servers all your books are also here can you

imagine is that popular I said sal >> and I smiled thank you thank you >> yes no that's fantastic but in fact that's one asset of who you are. You've been a diplomat as well uh in the Indian high commission to UK as well, right? For trade and culture and education. Uh and and then beyond that to you I came to know about uh your investment and you're building up the cancer institute as well for a new brother's company. Yes, I have an investment right >> but my twin brother and my elder brother uh it's a company that my father had started. They've made a first in the

world discovery to uh to u it's a diagnosis for cancer through a blood test. They just got the US patent trials just came through positively. >> Uh they'll save millions of lives. It's named the test is named after our late brother-in-law Ivan Chuoy who fought >> uh cancer very bravely for 2 and a half years. Uh it's a personal mission for us. >> I'm sorry to hear that but no I mean I I'm so happy to also hear about the fact that you know this can potentially save so many lives, right? So, so thank you so much for sharing that. In fact, uh uh

now you have uh you've decided to start a gaming company called Tara Gaming co-ounding that with Amitab Bachanuri Nabud as well and that's when Mul also joins you. >> My brother from another mother. >> Yeah, >> we we are school friends while seriously. Seriously, >> we were we were in the same class for like 10 years. >> Oh, fantastic. >> Him, his twin and me. Okay. and and all our core things are quite similar still which is which is nice cuz

it was not too bad quirks if if you could probably call them but yeah but it's very cool uh and ML you yourself have been so accomplished uh you know one of my favorites and I know uh you know I should ideally talk to you about the white tiger it's Oscar nominated BA nominated and so on and so forth there's been so much of work around music as a creative genius that you've been yourself right uh to movies and a bunch of other spaces as well. Uh and and couple of uh new additions that I think you had your company as well, Lava Media

as well, right? Which is also an award-winning agency. Yes. >> Uh and then my personal favorite because I have a 4 and a half yearear-old is uh that you now have the rights to Graati Kalapati as well, which is a kid's favorite too, right? So, so thank you so much both of you for joining in. It's it's fantastic to have two creative geniuses in one frame sharing so much of perspective and wisdom with the with the consumers as well. Thank you so much. Yes. >> And you've just joined Tara Gaming too as the transmitter producer and the

board board of director as well, right? So yes, >> fantastic. So before I go into Tara Gaming, which I'm very excited about, I do want to talk to you about a couple of other things, right? Specifically in terms of who you are as people, right? I've got some sense of it through my own research, but I think from a consumer standpoint, uh Amish, maybe you can start off with this. uh what got you into the world of mythology or I don't know if I should call it mythology or not because some of it is mythology some of that is ancient

Indian scriptures >> right and uh retelling that those stories in a way that people in the modern context understand them more more meaningfully than what have been conveyed to them let's say in Sanskrit where it was very difficult for a lot of people uh who do not understand the language very well to understand that in fact your books have been published in 20 languages too so what got you into the world of mythology. >> Um I'd heard this wonderful line once that uh no Indian hears the Ramayan for the

first time. We are born with it, right? Is we're the only pre-B bronze age culture that is still alive. It's almost it's our epics, our stories are a part almost of our bones, of our genes. >> Uh but we may not be aware of all the different versions. We may not be aware of all the texts because it's only whatever snatches you may have heard from family etc. For me good fortune of birth I I my grandfather was a pandit in Vanasi >> at Vishnaj Gi temple and uh used to teach at Banarasindrau University both my parents deeply religious.

>> Um so our family atmosphere was such that we grew up with all these stories. Our dinner table conversation was essentially uh these stories and my parents were educated in the Hindi medium. >> Okay. >> Uh we were the first generation to be educated in English and we were sent to schools uh you know where and which are frankly way above our parents kind of social income class. >> Uh so we had in a way the best of both worlds right because we were uh we went to schools like Lawren School, Cathedral

and John Conan. uh we learned u many of the western ways out there uh interacted with uh with many of the top families but at home it was completely you know Hindi traditional uh so we had a foot on in both worlds >> okay >> so much of my understanding of uh the epics and our traditions is from uh the family uh but I think it's good to get that broader perspective >> uh from the schools he went to as well. So it's kind of like a merger of both if if that makes sense. That happened for all four of us in

>> Okay. And that's what got you to start writing as well or narrating those stories. >> Yeah. Writing though uh I was as boring as as they come and completely leftrain. I mean I I used to do well academically. >> Okay. >> Uh and active in sports as well. Boxing, gymnastics. Uh this I have a slightly crooked nose. It's an old boxing uh injury. >> Okay. >> Um but I was never creative. >> Uh I never wrote anything. I used to sing songs but I never wrote songs. He

can actually create music, right? >> Uh I couldn't I could never create. >> In fact, in BFSI as well, right, for for my viewers too, >> but I I could never create music. I I never did anything artistic. My father wrote uh he used to write uh wonderful udu poetry for my mother >> but he never really published it. It was only for her, >> right? >> Um, >> but I never wrote anything. >> Oh, lovely. >> And be really beautiful and my mother's

just given permission. I think we may translate and publish it. Uh, we must. >> Yeah. >> But uh I never really wrote anything >> and uh I read a lot in our family. Everyone reads a lot. >> So I guess maybe all that inspiration was there, the knowledge was there from the family. >> Writing it just I I mean it it just began as a pure philosophy, thesis. 2004 2005 I genuinely believe it's the blessings of Lord Shiva I can't explain where it comes from it which is the stories just come to me and I write what

I see but I shown no traits of being creative when I was in school college most of my school friends still ask such right fantastic in fact uh I was telling you earlier uh before the shoot that uh I had read your first book when it released in 2010 10 and uh one of my I mean as a biotechnologist I mean I did my engineering in biotechnology I realized there was this one statement that I read as a line and I didn't want to read further below because it was almost a question which was like which is that one thing that keeps you alive and kills you at the same time

>> and I was like I'm a biotechnologist I should know this I just didn't want to read below because I was like let me guess this and I was shacking my head like this so obvious but what's what's it what's that one thing and then I realized oxygen and I was like damn So >> I learned that from my father. >> Is that okay? >> Because he was he was a genetic scientist >> and he told me about this and then gave me an article from the scientific American. >> We are that kind of family. You know

we'll we'll give each other things to read. So I read that and I found that entire you know concept so fascinating. Yeah. >> So I actually put it in the book and the first book I actually referenced it also that this is from a scientific American article and my father told me about this. >> Oh fantastic. So >> for those who don't know, oxygen actually helps you live, >> but it also oxidizes your cells and you slowly die as a part of it. It's it's it's one of the ironies of faith. That

which keeps you alive slowly kills you. >> Exactly. I mean uh it's it's strange that you know we study about this uh in science in schools as well. Somehow it doesn't pop up. But anyways uh so I just wanted to reference that because your creative style was very interesting, very refreshing and very inspiring as well. So thank you so much for publishing a lot of these books right and giving us this perspectives and coming to you ML uh your life has also been very very fascinating in that sense but you've done so many different things started probably with music uh you're

creating a lot of music you were at Sony BMG as well and then from there into >> I mean I wasn't at I was just my album was released by >> okay >> yeah if I was at them I would not be creative I would be >> a suit >> I'd be a record executive or something >> that pushed me under a lot of pressure released my first album which I composed and produced myself. >> What one of the things that creatives have is a dislike for the suits. >> Yeah, I I see now why Mo was giving me

those looks, right? So, >> well, the truth is as as you grow when you were when when I was making the album, you know, that was kind of true. You had a lot of angst and you had this view that uh you know, marketing is evil and you know, all those stupid I mean naive, you know, very pure creative thoughts. But of course as you grow older and you want to do bigger and bigger projects then uh like when I was making the white tiger someone told me the movie is finished when the audience sees it right >> which is a very interesting and

important point and if you see >> the greatest artists in the world from like Stanley Cubri or Christopher Nolan they really look at they know which cinema is going to play what is the format of the camera in the cinema that's how far they go into it. So historically it's always been clear that the the greatest artists are in and involved in the whole process but people you know wrongly misinterpret art as being just in your space and you know going crazy in a room and the whole world is bad but >> cuz you're not making it only for

yourself. You're making for the world. Yeah. >> It was fantastic. So So I wasn't working for Sony BMC. My bad. So that would be that would be wrong for me to work there and then get a record deal from them. >> All right. Uh so how did this whole journey uh get started and specifically how did it go into trans media world? I just I was very curious because uh the moment I think about trans media I think about a multiverse or a universe uh with multiiform factors. How did you even think about getting into the space? >> I mean don't my intuitive answer is like

you don't really think of it. It just it just happens. I mean for me >> uh you know like Amisha saying when you're young I was also a voracious reader. I used to read everything. Um you know from the Godfather to Amaritra Kadada to whatever whatever I could read read and I think when we were younger there was a a scarcity relative compared to now for sure of books. So I was just like a glutton for reading. >> Um and and for me all the creative areas reading um art architecture music film all of them um I loved all of them. They were my universe and it wasn't enough to

just consume it for me. I wanted to if I loved something, if something blew my mind, if I saw a movie and you come home and you can't sleep for 3 days because you're thinking about that movie, I wanted to know how they made that movie. >> How did someone create that emotion in me? That was very important for me as well. >> So, um, trans media was always a part of my life. Like I've done art shows as well, which you know, we didn't talk about, which is fine. I've done I've been a conceptual artist in music. I I you know, write the lyrics. I sing very

badly. Um I composed all the songs as well. I produce it. Um in in in movies also I am very involved in the writing as well because as a producer I did a lot of writing courses as well. Um the core of a movie of any of these things is the story and if you're not good at the story you can't really make anything. So I'm very detail oriented ultimately. Um so trans media is just for me the core story remains there and what are the different um you know reflections of it almost in a way that that's really what it is you know it's not this big word or something like that

of course >> from the core when you want to go into something else you know for example uh someone was asking me how do you decide what to make >> so I said if I really have to look at the process there's three parts in it one part for any creator is what resonates with you it has to resonate with you first because the amount amount of time and effort and blood and sweat and tears that go into putting anything out >> is so mind-blowing that if it doesn't fully resonate with you, if you're not

going to commit >> like give your arm for it, you're not going to make it basically. So, it has to resonate. First thing is you. >> Then the second thing is do you think that the world wants this kind of thing? Especially for a bigger project like a video game or a movie. If you're just doing something for yourself, they don't have to think too much about it. But for a bigger project which needs bigger resources, you have to think about the world, the audience. And the third thing is execution. >> Execution means the team that along with

you is going to make this happen because you're going to need 10 20 for a movie 200 people for a game 200 people you know plus um in terms of production marketing and distribution. So you have to think of all those things as well. >> Um so for trans media you have to think of these areas as well. You can't just say I have this great idea. You have to think that am I good enough to do it? Do the people want to see it? and am I good enough to not of course by myself to get a team around me to find that team to make it happen also. >> Um that's really how you think of of of

trans media. So is there is there I'm just just very curious right is there some kind of a consumer insights play that goes into it because like you said uh a lot of great artists have always thought through the whole >> uh end to end spectrum right so you think about that you know this kind of audience this kind of a consumer demographic is now going to look at particular form factor of content for example there's a huge increase in the gaming population at the same time people are watching a lot of short form content like one of the things that I've

been pushed a lot for is while my podcasts uh much lengthier much more in-depth conversations I've been able to start creating a lot of short form content right because the attention span is going down that does that also play out in your mind when you think about how you are shaping these IPs across different uh form factors of distribution or >> yeah yeah everything does I mean >> um you have 24 hours in a day >> so you have to your mind I mean my mind will automatically go into all those areas for sure

>> part of my mind when I'm sitting with another coowriter and deep in the zone of just creating that world then I try at that point I try very hard not to think of the outside world because when you're in that deep creative space I read somewhere that comparison kills creativity I like that you know so there you you shouldn't be touched by it that's a different space you have to be able to silo your mind that's a different space right >> um like today we were talking to the the music composer for for age of bharat >> and I was in the car on the way here

>> and I closed my eyes while I was talking to him because you know I was talking to him about there's a French guys, there's a German guys, there's an Indian you know it's a whole collaboration of different people and uh we had some ideas that we wanted to share about the sounds the darkness but what instruments to use the mang the pakawavach you know not just the typical instruments a little more darker a little more innovative you know find instruments where the world will be like oh that's Indian >> I didn't realize that's Indian there's a

vibe to it but it's not like okay I put a satar on you know which is not the most obvious thing that's the interesting thing for me to do >> so at that point I just closed my eyes and I was in that zone talking to him. I was verbalizing, you know, very badly. I was doing all these stupid things on the phone just to, you know, make them understand what I wanted. I don't know if they laughed or not, >> but um so then you're in that I'm not thinking of anything else. I'm only thinking of that, >> right?

>> Then after they go and record with those musicians, we will hear it and then I'll go into a bigger producer mind in a way, which is like, okay, this is good. Is this too weird? Does this work with the game? >> Is this too random? >> So, you have to you have to wear all these different hats. So, I think at various points of the process, you do think of the outside world. I mean and when you're building a big video game or a movie like for the white tiger my company lava media did a had a partnership with Netflix America it was

very hard to do as an Indian guy in India I'm slightly known but in America I'm nobody basically so it was a lot of work >> and a lot of hustle for me to go to LA and run around with this book like a mad person and finally get that thing with Netflix America I was very clear that this book needed the US hand basically the center of the world in film to take it globally which is why you know my it was by design I wanted it to be Oscar nominated movie. I wanted it to be you know big all over the world. I didn't know it would be number one in whatever

70 countries but but I wanted it to be global. It was very clear. I didn't that's why I didn't set it up with an Indian studio. That's why my team was a mix of of me the book and a lot of people from all over the world >> because I was very clear that I'm Indian and the book is Indian. So I we're here I'm here for the authenticity but I want a global storytelling >> infrastructure with me as well to take it to the next level. So again it's the same example while I'm talking to someone about the book. I'm deep in that book. I'm tripping out. I was obsessed.

>> Arinda Da was like you know the book better than me. I don't think so. But you know I knew the book pretty well >> right? >> So that's the core creative side. But then you have to go into the larger world and understand. I did a lot of research. Research is very important. That is Netflix the best partner is uh I had another studio who was interested as well you know. So did a little bit of a bidding war. You have to play all those games and understand what is the best way to do distribution and marketing is very very important. Right.

>> Same for this video game. So, you have to balance both out basically. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. I mean, and >> if I can add just two more things, I completely agree with everything that he's saying, >> but two more things to add to it. The the >> one of the challenges with a long creative project is you got to skate to where the ball is going to be, right? >> You have if you're playing hockey, you have to run to where the ball is going to be, not where the ball is right now. >> True. So if the movie game book is going

to release 2 years later, 3 years later, what will the market be at that point of time? >> You have to kind of think that through, right? >> And if you're going to do it that way, then working outside in doesn't work, >> right? Uh you have to have that conviction a bit like what Steve Jobs had said, often the consumers >> do not know what they want. >> Yeah. Because I mean because you have to show it to them, >> right? >> But you have to it can't just be a

random insight. You have to make sure you engage with consumers. You have to have a deep instinct. >> Okay. >> Uh and then kind of present the product. And the second thing what you said about short form uh uh content. So I so sorry just to complete that first point first. So you must have that courage of conviction and it has to resonate with you. >> U build you kind of build that insight, build that intuition. It's not going to come like this. >> But the but where the market will be

cannot be based on market research and PowerPoint presentation. It's just an insight >> based on actually engaging deeply. Because remember you're launching the product two years later or 3 years later you have to be able to guess where it will be where the market will be at that point of time and if particularly if you're doing something new >> right like when I launched a model of models of meab >> I mean books on our uh epic stories weren't really selling well bharat is going to be the first of of this kind so

we we're actually doing pioneering work second thing on that short form uh content at least my approach the way the younger generation is, the way Gen Z, younger millennials are, they either give you nothing or they give you everything, right? So, which means they'll give you just two seconds and just swipe up, >> right? >> Or if they like your series, they'll binge watch. They'll commit an entire weekend to it and binge watch it. If they likes your book, they'll like your book series, they'll buy all three books

and finish it in one weekend. >> Our generation, I'm 51, we're the same age roughly. We would give average attention spans to everything. >> The younger generation either gives you nothing or gives you everything. So now if you want to be one of those bingeworthy creative products, >> you have to make sure your your art is worth it. >> Right? Why should they commit an entire weekend to you? >> Very true. >> Right? Unless you've committed 3 years

to it, fine-tuning everything, sculpting everything that it's so damn good >> that they've never seen something like this before and they say this is worth a weekend. >> Makes a lot of sense. >> There's so much choice than they have. >> Exactly. And remember, they're not just you're not just competing for their money. That's the easier thing. You're actually competing for their time. >> Yes. >> And they have only so much time. >> And they can spend it on books. They can spend it on games. They can spend it on

a visit to the spend it on Instagram. They can spend it on a date. You're competing with their date. Why should they give you that time? >> Totally. >> It has to be worth it. >> Changing mindset is very obvious today. People are uh looking at time value over money quite significantly, right? Uh specifically tier ones. Tier 2 is also gradually shaping up on that front as well. So that money is not important but the approach towards life is changing. Fantastic point. Thank you so much for sharing that. Uh I want to start talking

a little more deeper into Tara Gaming but before we even get into that the first things first it's fairly established everyone knows this you're very creative uh there's a lot of research that's been done but what was the main problem that you were trying to solve for or why did you even think about getting into building Tara gaming? >> You want to start first? >> Sure. Um I mean there are many things really that come to mind but um if you see I'm a gamer I've been a gamer uh since I was a kid you know I had a Atari Nintendo blah

blah everything um >> Atari you may have to clarify what Atari is because a lot of people didn't know back then what Atari is. I was also on Atari >> but I think I think from what I've seen um um you know a lot of my work I work with 20 to 25 year olds and they're pretty conversant on old as well. Yeah, they're pretty conversant on nostalgia is a very big thing for Gen Z. >> Okay. >> So, they would know. I mean, if you're a gamer, you'll know what Atari is because, you know what I mean?

>> I mean, Atari is the first video game console. >> The joystick joystick with a button and Pong was the game. Ting, Space Invaders. >> Um, Tetris. Yes. So, everything basically. So, I've always played games. Um but um if you see the genre that we're in which is uh AAA RPG role playing games um and again this is very similar to the white tiger. Basically if you look back at creative products because creative products are cultural in nature also they tend to happen where the companies are situated in a way. So most um RPG games historically

were because the studios were in Japan, Europe or America were either Norse mythology or medieval European fantasy or samurai. You had a little bit of Greco Roman with Egypt there in the mix. All the games are anchored in these things because that's where the studios were. The creative team are from those countries are sitting there. That's their mind space. That's how it is basically. >> Um last year there was a game called Blackmith Wukong which was a Chinese theme game. the first Chinese themed AAA

game uh which did 1.2 2 billion you know the massive hit all over the world. Um so so I do believe there is space for an Indian themed you know like Amir you said India has the oldest it's one of the oldest civilizations in the world our stories are mind-blowing like the Mahabharata is is for me one of my personal favorite stories ever >> it just blows my brains the the level of detail in it and everything about it it's amazing it's >> it's game of thrones it meets Lord of the Rings meets everything times 10 it's like the DNA for all that for me

personally >> um but none of this has been shown in the gaming world because it's very clear because the powers that be were not here >> you know the the the tailwinds didn't exist for that to happen so I think it's an amazing time for for that basically um which is why now >> which I think is your question >> why now and why I mean what's the intent so you answer that as a >> the intent the intent is again it's like those three things you know you have something that resonates with you you feel there's an audience for it which I

kind of answered and the last thing is that who's the team right >> you need the team to do it >> and I think we have an amazing team Nuradin Aboud who is our executive producer he did Tom Clansancy host recon he worked he's worked on many massive billion dollar games he has clearly demonstrated that he can deliver >> something like this on this scale before you have Amish who is you know the greatest writer of Indian stories in the world Amitab G the most recognizable Parat the land of ancient India

>> maybe in the world in India for sure >> right >> um you know and Nicholas who's our great chairman also you know involved in everything strategizing never sleeping >> ever ever >> um so we have we have good team for execution as well so I mean these are the things that come together again to try you try to aim for success you know that's what you do basically >> fantastic I think uh that also I think segus into macro factors as well specifically because you spoke about talent I do want to get deeper into that

as well about uh talent in India and how that's shaping up >> and how this I mean you launching Tara gaming will also now inspire a lot of younger generations to follow suit and uh follow suit >> yeah timing is perfect yeah because um look India is a big gaming market but essentially a mobile game >> right so um low cost uh uh cheap or free, right? Uh simple stuff, cricket, bas something like that. >> Um uh but our per capita income is now reaching a stage where you can have uh there enough people with the funds to

get into PC gaming or console gaming, right? Uh secondly, the the Indian origin market abroad, >> right? People of Indian origin abroad, it's also a huge uh market. I mean that the PIO market abroad has a has a wealth base of 3 to4 trillion dollars right >> it's almost as much as the Indian GDP >> right >> that is also a huge uh market >> thirdly the increasing uh you know attention on India so you know there's obviously a personal uh desire to do something like this because like our stories bringing it to the world at the

absolute top end because look if it's not going to be good quality At least people like we don't want to get involved, right? If we do something, it should be good quality. No one's forcing us to do it. >> We worked hard to do premium stuff. >> Yeah. And if you built a name, you don't want to spoil it. >> True. >> So the team, the funds, everything is together. But perhaps the market is also ready. And remember, by the time this uh launches, India will be even wealthier.

Uh the pace we are growing. Uh so timing really works perfectly uh perfectly well and uh if you're trying to do something new >> uh then getting that timing right is so critical cuz the first mover advantage in something like this is massive. >> Massive. >> Yeah. So I mean and and I think I I read somewhere I uh heard your interviews in the past you had mentioned somewhere that uh uh gaming is the new battlefield uh you know for mythology for uh content right uh specifically Indian mythology uh why why would you think about it in

that perspective uh >> I didn't say battlefield I said the new frontier >> new frontier >> and what I mean by this is Uh look if you think about it in in books for example uh till around uh 20 years ago what you read in books when we were growing up uh even if you went to an Indian bookstore the kind of books you would read would not really speak of Indian stuff >> in the English language at least okay if you read in Hindi or Marati okay it's a different matter in the English language

the uh the books the stories were actually about exa exoticizing India. We didn't really read about the real India in our books. That changed in the last 20 years. You see this changing in so many other sectors. One sector where it has not happened is gaming, right? There are so many Indian gamers. >> They don't see their culture represented, >> right? >> In uh in games, right? >> More gamers than than any other country. Yes. And that's a point that I was making that

>> they would love if they seeing their culture in every other >> uh medium every other you know art form and movies books music why can't they see I the concert market has taken off >> in India we didn't think of it man I mean if someone had told me even 5 years ago people would spend 10,000 rupees for a ticket as a paga you know for a concert that's not >> and line up for it >> and line up for but it's happening right theater is taking off would have thought that Right. Right. >> Why can't it happen in gaming?

>> One of the key challenges is because gaming just the amount of investments is so big. Often people who are gamers know this but non-gamers think gaming is a subculture. >> And one of the things I said in the interview is actually gaming is the main culture. The rest of us are subcultures >> cuz gaming is bigger than movies, music, books combined. >> So the amount of investment needed to build something of quality maybe that was the inhibiting factor. right now we have a team which is pulling uh that together uh the you know the quality of

manpower funds that's why I I see it as like the the final frontier to get our culture in not as a battlefield but a frontier >> frontier makes sense in fact uh I I think recently in the last 3 four years we've also seen enough and more movies doing very very well uh you know be it Brahmaster or Bahubali and a bunch of these which have been talking about mythology right bringing mythological elements into mainstream movies and audiences have loved those movies, right? So that's also probably potentially a signal that you know uh

they want to engage more with this form of a content if books have been doing so well. Uh so so there's enough and more of audience intake as well who want to consume more about probably even nationalism. uh I do not know if uh that's the right way to put it across but I've noticed that there's a increase in the intent of the consumers in India to be associated with Indian folklore Indian stories Indian mythologies >> and uh uh one interesting thing that was going on my mind is how uh when you even when you mentioned about Mahabharata being a very intricate epic right that

that you know is probably 10x of uh game of films and Lord of the Rings and more How much of uh this storytelling or narrative creation is uh or should be balanced between faithful retelling of what we had what has been written in scripts or scriptures versus a bold reimagination of some of these narratives which are more applicable for how we look at the world today. >> May I take some on the narrative? So um >> you better Look, my my approach to this because look, it's gaming and there's a certain

idiom that gaming has a certain atmosphere that gaming has, >> right? Um, >> so we want to make it work for gaming, >> but we don't want to do something which uh would be disrespectful in any way. And I'm not just saying that as uh, you know, wanting to avoid controversy or something, right? I'm seeing that as people who actually worship the gods that I write on that we >> we have living living you know living religions living traditional so we actually so how do we find that middle ground so what we are doing in

our narrative structure >> um is look it's it's not that you get to play Lord Ram or one of the gods that's not going to happen >> right obviously not right >> right >> but if you want to see the battle of Lord Ram and Rahan as the meta narrative, >> right? Uh you are in the micro narrative, >> right? >> Where you are a forest warden fighting the minor raas. So there is the world of the epics

>> and which is which animates the world that you're fighting in >> that you're playing in >> but you don't get to play Lord Ram or any of the other gods that's not going to happen. Right. >> Right. So it's at the micro narrative level. So the way to see these the age of bharat and the other sequels I'll come to it. You're in the world of the epics but you don't get to play the gods or the goddesses >> right >> you get to play in the micro narrative and they may be a minor rashasa for the

gods but for you they're very powerful >> right as a player. >> Yeah. >> So you're kind of in that world if that makes sense. M um and since that micro narrative is something that's not really written about as long as we are faithful to the world >> it's okay it'll never be disrespectful because it's only at the micro narrative level >> yeah uh moving to the fact that you know and I think one of you alluded to this aspect as well that uh movies or different form factors are short form

content right can go from let's say 2 hours to let's say OTT of 10 hours or 12 hours right uh gaming arc is like 70 80R game play. What is the the biggest differentiator that you see when you have to build a whole universe or the whole arc around a 80rour journey of a protagonist or a character that has to transverse that whole world? >> Let me take this as well and then you end this on the on the narrative. >> The I think the key thing that uh because I'd never worked on a game before. This is the first time. I think the key

mindset shift uh that anyone who's been in other media could be books, movies, anything uh is we are used to uh the story being a journey >> being one arc, right? >> Um and we as the authors or the movie makers control the journey that you as the reader or viewer takes, right? The only choice you have is you can shut the book, >> right? >> Or stop watching the movie. You can't say I want the book to go in this direction or in that direction. You

can't do that. I've set up the journey, right? >> That's a key difference between this and the game. >> Uh the agency is in your hands >> as the player. You decide the path you're going to take. I have no idea. Right? So, uh, the narrative team and and as the narrative builder, what we have to do is set up a universe >> where there's enough gameplay potential for 78 hours, >> but I have no idea what path you'll take, >> right?

>> You could take various different paths within that. How do I make sure that it's engaging enough uh that you have fun with it and that it remains um consistent throughout? you know you can't say right so in that sense actually it's a mindset shift it can be much more complicated but also much more fun so it takes a far far greater amount of work it's not just that it's 70 hours and a movie is 2 hours so it's 35 times the work it's actually many further times the work because you're as the creator you're not

are in control of the journey. >> Makes sense. >> That's one. Go ahead. >> Yeah. No. Uh completely agree to add to that. >> Um it's also like um this is a linear format. A movie or a book is a linear format. >> Right. >> I sometimes read books and I skip pages here and there, but I'm not I'm not a good example of it. >> Um >> not mine. >> No, not yours. Yours. Yours. You can't.

Your your if I skip a page, I'll be like, "What the hell happened? It's too much of a It's a page turner, not a multiple page turner or a book closer and say that was really a book closer, different kind of a different kind of a page turner. Um, so you know, when you're looking at in a video game, it's one is of course you want to compare 2 hours versus 30 hours or 70 hours or whatever, but really what it's about is is choices and emotion. Because when you're uh like trans media, when you're translating something from a book or something, you're looking at the

emotion. For me, the emotion is very important in everything. What emotion do I want to trigger in the audience or the player? That's what that's what is important for me. Um and in a in a in a movie or in a book, it's very clear. The whole arc is already given. But here, you are making choices with me. You are co-authoring it with me. >> Right? >> So, it's really what choice? But I'm giving you the choices. There are some you can kill someone, you can protect someone, you can betray someone, you can

negotiate with someone, >> you can let someone go. You know, those are the kind of choices you have which will determine your dharma, dharma, various things and how the game goes on. So I'm giving you those choices, but but I'm so I'm I'm creating this world for you, but you are choosing in that world. So it's not so simple as just being a linear, you know, 2 hours versus 30 40 hours. Basically, it's really about choices and the multitude of choices that >> actually just adding a bit more to that. That's what I think will make the age of

Bharat that much deeper >> compared to other games that you have. >> Um, which I think can be very simplistic. Um, there's and GTA is only you know, so it's not really morality or anything but many of the other games become very simplistic. Here we are actually animating it with dharma. >> Okay. So seriously in our narrative team with an Irish lady and an American Jew, we actually discuss dharma. >> Right. Because the entire point of the game is that the choices are not simple. >> Right.

>> Right. Um so in that sense it's going to be different from other games because it's going to be much deeper. Uh there are times when you have to do something, you don't have a choice. It's still uh >> not a great choice. >> Not a great choice. No because dharma if you read the mahar it's very complicated right it's not simple the answer there is no good and bad >> the answers are it's not simple black and white it's complicated right um and the game will actually explore this which is what makes it that much deeper and which is why I I think we're having

great fun working on this >> uh and I think the players will have fun as well because it's not just a simple demon killing >> slash and burn >> yeah slash and No, >> at times you'll find uh like even the quote unquote demons had a story, right? >> And they made choices and because of that they're stuck where they are, right? Um even the NPCs, you know, the non-playing characters. We want to make them deeper. They're not just going to be some random cardboard chaps telling you walk this way, right? Um, so that's

where actually we're having great and I think that's what will make the game immersive >> uh to the players because every time they go back in they'll discover something new. That's that's amazing right because uh uh it's it's so uh interesting in real life also I mean uh I think Elon Musk was mentioning that you know we are in a simulation and we also believe that we have a bunch of choices but at the end of the day they are still within those finite choices availability that we need our lives right

>> we seen the matrix obviously >> like everyone else >> I see >> because I'm just joking but >> prematrix I don't know what that was that would be a wise thing to say but matrix like everybody you know I mean we all know that like true >> so when when we talk about this form of storytelling which involves like for example in the teaser I saw there was a frame where I saw Ganesh G in in one of the caves or something that you know the protagonist was going through >> yeah his morti right uh when I when I

saw that uh I was just thinking about it that you know for example Karani is one of those gods that I think a lot of people outside of India also >> know about right uh He I mean people do worship and I've seen people in France when I was living in Paris someone had a tattoo of uh Ganesha who was a French Catholic who had a Ganesha tattoo on his hand right uh so so people do relate with him but when we talk about building a Indian mythology AAA game from India with Indian narratives uh scriptures at the back end of it how does this look like from a globalized game

>> what do you mean how does it look from globalized >> uh uh for example people, you know, people who are of Indian origin outside will of course enjoy this game play, but people who are not who are not Indians, who do not necessarily know the narratives very very well >> at all. I mean for me personally what was interesting in this whole project >> was that it was doing something from India for the world. That was that's what interesting for me. >> Mostly what I like to do is that kind of stuff. I like to take stuff from here

like the white tiger and you know take it global. Um and um in my head I I I'm very clear that everybody has different assumptions. In my head I assume that nobody knows anything about it. You know, it's fine. Why will a guy from Texas >> know anything about it. Maybe he's heard of obviously he's heard of maybe a 20-year-old kid may not have even heard of Ganesha. You know, I mean in America, >> I'm not assuming that they've heard of anything. I go with a blank slate other than the Indians and the Indian diaspora, which is decent size, but a

small part of the overall thing. If the game has to be successful, if the game has to be a phenomenon, it has to be you know 90% people who are not involved in any Indian situation at all basically. >> Um and and and for that I think the bottom line is very simple in what I'm saying but very complicated execution. It has to be a damn good game. >> The game the game play has to be 10 on 10 because a a gamer is a unforgiving person naturally. He's a 20 or 25 year old kid, mostly a boy, >> who is voting with his wallet, who's paying his I'm saying his or her, but

it's mostly his hardearned money for this video game, taking out their time, taking out everything where, you know, we're going to launch in a year or something from now. You're you're in a hyper competitive environment. Blackmmith, Wukong, the sequel is going to come out. >> Stuff that we haven't even imagined is going to come out on Unreal Engine 5, right? We have to be at that level where the person is not buying it because they're like, you know, I like Mahabharata or I'm Indian. That's good. But that is that is one part of it. The

larger part of it is they have to like it because it's an unbelievable game. >> They have to love the trailer. They have to love everything about it. We have to hit, >> you know, when I said execution, all those things, the production, which includes everything from the game play, the music, the crunchiness of the combat, everything has to be like world class and a little bit more because Because all the video games that come out that really become phenomenons, if you want to do, you know, hundreds of million dollar sales

>> or a billion dollar sales, you have to innovate the hell out of some stuff, you have to use the tropes of gameplay that exist, >> but you have to add new things in it, you know, like that people haven't seen before. >> So, that has to be there. That that is the bottom line along with the interesting thing that this is something that they've never seen before because they've seen Norse mythology, they've seen, you know, Viking stuff, they've seen samurai stuff. You have a new universe as well. So,

>> uh I started FIFA 99 for the first time and I remember the game play >> and then very recently I played FIFA 26. I think 26 has released recently and uh so I played FIFA 26 >> and the game play has changed so drastically. You know, I remember it used to be so funny. The goal was this side. I could just kick this side. The ball would automatically go that side, right? In 99, but in 26, the physics of actual shooting, >> turning of the ball and so on and so forth has become so more realistic now. And that is the that's a aspect of

gameplay that most gamers expect today. So for for building something like that, how difficult is it to to formulate a team >> uh which is able to not just understand cultural nuances or gaming nuances plus a bunch of other such nuances bring it all together and build out something that is so holistic ecosystem. >> So if you look at um you know there are many different genres of gaming. This is how I explain to people >> right >> um the largest genre of course everybody knows is mobile gaming and for your

audience in India everybody would know a video game from something they've played or they've seen their wives or their children or something play mostly on a phone >> right >> 70 80% be on a phone some of them would see their kids >> with a console you know with a PS5 or Xbox >> right >> um or on their computer on a high-end computer on Steam playing a game >> right >> that is the the universe that we're

talking about out here >> um the smaller games that exist on mobile phones and all can be built with smaller studios but the bigger AAA games with the higher production values and all. It's like you're building a giant creative machine. The best analogy that I give to non-gamers which I meet a lot of >> are it's like a blockbuster movie because the budget is similar. It's the average AAA game cost 100 $200 million and if it does well it can do hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. M >> so it's a very similar analogy to that

in terms of cost of input time taken to make something and the team also has two three 400 people a lot of special effects kind of stuff so very similar in that way very different medium but very similar in that way >> now to answer thing of building a team it's like building any any team for any creative venture which is very different from building a team for a for a a tech venture right I I always bifocate I was telling my daughter also she was asking me yesterday she asked me she's 9 years old what's your job Right. >> So I was talking about jobs and what it

means and and then I said this is a thesis I'm telling I'm like this is a thesis I've come up it may be wrong but I feel there's two kinds of jobs that you can get. >> A creative job and a non-creative job. A non-creative job is I don't call it non creative but yeah whatever is when you can go to a college and get a degree and then you can get a job based on that degree. That's one type of person. And the second type of person is after you go to college you learn something and there's no job available for you. Like we said we are soloreneurs. you're out

in the world hustling like a beast to do some stuff or the other. Nothing one is better than the other, but the are two different things, right? >> When you're building a creative business, it's somewhere in the middle of that really because there's no tried and tested thing. You're not making widgets or something like that because there is a cultural aspect to it. Like you said, there's a strong cultural aspect. You can't >> just be overtly technical in it. So, so in a way, it's much more complex. Pixar is the best example of it really. Um,

and it really takes honestly special skill and I'm very happy that you know we have Nuradin honestly on board because he's the captain of the ship >> and he has sailed these kind of ships before. >> Um, I have played video games before but I've never made a video game before >> and he's done billion dollar games. >> Exactly. So, and I've spent a lot of time with him now understanding I've, you know, studied the organization structure. I like all that stuff. You know, I studied business management. I've built companies before. So for me

another interesting thing when I came about is that it's a good learning thing also. You have to learn in life you know learn or die. >> Um and movies are different. I mean I've built film companies before but that's still traditional in a way. A movie itself is a very interesting startup to use a startup analogy because like in the white tiger at its peak time we had 250 people from all over the world who come to India for 3 months to shoot a thing in Delhi where you had fogs, riots, earthquakes everything that accidents everything. I broke my the

first shoot. Everything that can happen can happen. You have people you know priyanka chopra has to come from America she has to fly back twice because something else you know crazy logistics but it's for three months it's a startup >> where you're incubating it for like years and years can be for the scripts and the white tag was 2 three years but then the production is in 3 months >> and then the editing is in another 6 months and then you market it. So I'm just giving you an idea of >> you know for a startup mentality the the pressure involved right

>> it's on another level basically and and most of these people don't know each other >> not most all of them I met the director I met Raine like 6 months before so nobody knows each other you meet on the set right >> pretty much someone will know someone you know the cameraman but 90% of them know each other that's what movies in in a game it's a little more spread out because you have a few years to make it and the team has more time to settle in but ultimately I'm just going to paraphrase Nadine And

there's so many levels in this of trying to make sure like our goal now is to have um the the alpha this year hopefully sooner than later we're going to have the alpha. So the whole team is running, you know, with blinkers on like mad men and mad women to get that alpha ready, you know, like tripping to get that alpha ready, >> right? >> The other thing with video games is cost. Time is money cuz your whole life is your salary. You have your the cost of video game and you say 100 million, 200 million, 2 billion for Grand Theft

Auto 6, the highest cost of any IP ever. $2 billion launching whenever this year they keep billing it. >> It's just people. There's nothing else. processing power is a small part of it, but 90% is just people. So you have 100 200,000 whatever the hell people it is, you're paying tens of millions of dollars of salary in Grand Theft Auto scale or millions of dollars every month. The longer you take, the more your cost is. >> So it's just such an interesting mix, a cacophony of madness in a way because you have these goals. You want

to make the best game. >> If you make a crap game very fast, guess what? Nobody's going to give you a prize for saying, "Yeah, I saved 20 million, but I made a [ __ ] game and it went down." >> Right? >> So, you have to make the best version possible in a hyper competitive environment >> with your costs going on and keeping it tight. And there a lot of game companies that have done badly because costs have spiraled out of control. Also, you know, in the last 5 years,

>> keep fine tuning and improving the quality. >> So, I'm just giving you an example. >> Makes sense >> of of of how it works in the gaming world. I can't get too much into the detailed details as such but right >> it's a question of the amount of time that you play and more you know this is at a broader level but within the you know if you drill down and you're talking about like for example the physics that enjoy >> the physics of FIFA 26 a lot more >> right

>> so now that takes time to create >> of course >> like for example among the things that we're doing >> uh it's being debated we have to figure out how to do it is uh you know can we had Indian battle forms color too and do more cap motion capture for it >> and then put that into the game. Now this is a a battle style which for Indians will be so cool right >> westerners have never pu is a very it's it's almost like a dance form so beautiful >> okay

>> and if you're doing motion capture the physics will be perfect but it's so beautiful >> right >> right now if you're fighting from that way with motion capture something you've never seen but this will take time it will take investments right >> makes sense >> um so that's where the >> but it'll add to the quality so where is the line so there's a continuous line being drawn all the time for every aspect Correct. >> You're not just going to run it off, you

know, the computer player engine. We'll actually get motion capture done. So this is >> and as he said there's the balance between >> I guess the main if I have to really think more the main difference or the main yeah main thing to understand between I like analogies because you know I've done a lot of business stuff. I've done a few things but I always you naturally draw analogies what you've done before and what you understand and for your audience I think the analogy would be um

in a startup because a lot of things they said are similar to a startup you have time constraint blah blah blah blah blah blah blah but I guess the difference is in a startup you have prototypes and and you can launch you can soft test everything and you can test a little bit you can test a little bit more you can test with with one buyer blah blah blah in a game also you're always testing but ultimately there's one day when you launch the game >> that's it you You better have a good game then you can you have a little bit of a chance after you launch unlike a

movie to make things a little better later and all but buddy you better get the good you get it out launched good with with a tech startup it's okay you can there's more chances to screw up along the way because you're not yeah you're not going out with your full marketing thing with just one we've come up with this product for a startup they don't do that you're just >> you're soft testing and you're growing it's not just one thing >> so that is the biggest I would say difference between these two things >> and the high higher pressure this is on

a movie because there you can't do anything. It's the highest r you can do some testing for like 200 people and you can say h we'll reshoot what can you do like one second you can't get everyone together again you're you're done basically so >> it's like if I remember correct >> that's the worst case >> one version of word or Microsoft point was being launched Bill Gates was on stage and it hung >> at that time do you remember that >> but it did make a difference it

>> four months later when you do this with a game >> okay and if you haven't got things right you haven't got the game It's gone, you know, and and game players are unforgiving. I >> I'm assuming that's why >> so aggressive. Yeah, >> that's why it's AAA, I'm assuming, because that's a level of uh expectation. >> It's a moniker for the quality. >> Yeah. >> Expectation. >> I mean, AAA there are a lot of games

that have done well that are double A plus also in the last few years. There are some games. So yeah, it is a moniker for the expectation and it's a good always a good question that why I I think that is just something yeah that we wanted to set ourselves as the highest level right >> um because when you say we're building a trip AAA game means we are telling the world that this you can compare this to all the games right >> basically saying you can compare to the best games there is no compromise >> uh on you know on anything game play

visual you know all the stuff so >> that's what we we're setting the bar very high Yeah. So I we've promised big. We have to deliver big. >> We don't. Yes. Then so >> then we'll point like >> No, no. We'll point to No. Where is he? >> Paris. Paris. >> All right. So I also wanted to talk about your Northstar metric. Uh you know when you're developing a game like this, what do you typically look at? Right. Is it uh you know the number of uh is it the amount of revenue? Is it some critical awards? uh cultural impact

combination of some of these or more uh what what do you look at as a typical northstar metric for success of this game? I think for any creative product whether it's a book or in anything you do it's a mix of all you want a Oscar nomination you want a book a prize win you definitely want some sales you have to you know pay the rent and live and in our in our case pay lots of salary >> what's that one big thing that you really aim for like when you said about white tiger that you always aiming for Oscar nomination or Oscar win so what is that one big thing one major northstar

metric that you're looking at >> I mean look there's two hats that I where as a as a board member of Tara Gaming, my northstar metric would be it should make a lot of money >> and be very profitable. >> But when I say that, >> when you say it has to make a lot of money automatically, what does that mean automatically? It means that you have to sell X million copies. >> For it to sell X million copies automatically, what does that mean? That means it's some sort of a phenomenon. If I'm saying I want to make, I'm just

giving example, hundreds of millions of profit. That means it has to sell X millions, 10 million, whatever, 15 million plus. for it to sell that much means automatically it has to do very well globally and and in India as well just by saying that one thing I'm taking care of all these things the only thing I'm not taking care of is the let's call it critical side which is oh am I going to win or be nominated for a game of the year award which is also great to have but this is I think u and no one's going to mind if they have a game that does a billion dollars worldwide and doesn't

get nominated for a game of the award I think you'll you'll survive you know and it's a hello boss I have enough I need to build my next game and be nominated. But if you get nominated for the best awards and all that stuff and you tank like a beast because you made an insane Homer's Odyssey game which is complex and only 10 people can play it but the critics love it. >> Yeah. >> May not be the best use of your time and money. So that's my nuanced answer. >> Not deliver both quality

>> and that is possible. when we talk about economics in that sense of it uh I know it's a year out from now but do you have some kind of a business model in mind and I'm just thinking it from a perspective of the audience who would also want to understand that how typically gaming companies think about business models uh typically when I did a little bit of my research I realized that you know you have a single uh purchase that happens right then you have passes available for the season and so on and so forth you have subscription models and so on and so forth any

particular thought process that you put into what could be a good model a business model for >> continuous we are continuously in touch with that's like you said before you're in touch with the landscape what is the distribution landscape >> when you're building something like this you have to be continuously looking at the landscape with India with China with America with the whole world what is the new distribution mechanisms exist what are the platforms that exist for example as you know Microsoft la there's something new called cloud gaming it's

been going on for a bit before because all these console games um are typically need a very high-end machine you know for the graphics and everything the Xbox etc. Um so they launched something called cloud gaming where all you need is any device. You have a mobile phone uh but you need a good internet connection which luckily India has and everybody has a mobile phone and you can play the video game because the game is processed on the cloud. It's actually an amazing technology but it's very common now with AWS and everything. >> Um this technology they launched it

globally. It didn't do from what I understand very well globally because globally there was already full penetration. People already had the consoles. People already have the high-end machines. But in countries like India >> right >> where as you know console penetration is nothing compared to we have the highest number of mobile gamers I think in the world now. >> True. >> It's a game changer. So Microsoft launched that last year. I was very

excited when I saw that at the amazing very very Indian specific friendly price of 99 rupees a month which as we all know is a very good price. Amazon Prime everybody has that 199 129 that kind of price. >> Now whether we go for that or not we'll have to see what it is like game pass. Game pass is a newer development versus pure purchase. So that's a complex thing depending on each territory and all that stuff. Whether you >> how to sell the game, do you have a fixed cost which is somewhere $30, $50, $70. You know, there's different ranges

of AAA games versus a game pass. How does the revenue shares come from a subscription model versus direct bank model? It depends on territory. There's no answer to that right now. It's a it's a complex thing. But as an Indian, I am very very excited about cloud gaming being launched in India with such >> gusto, >> you know that that Microsoft is launching it, you know, and many other people are going to launch in India. I think Jio is also going to launch in India because that means that today anyone with a mobile phone, they just

have to buy a little controller. They don't have to spend 50,000 rupees, which is what a PS5 costs, and have a have a TV screen with an available space in their house for it, right? >> They don't have to have all that. they're just on their phone and they can play our game. So I'm that is the most exciting development for me personally that that that everybody can play our game and I hope that you know we live up to that. >> Yeah. Uh when it comes to building a team in India uh there's certain technical skills uh like combat design,

systems design, VFX and so on and so forth. How easy or difficult has it been to hire that kind of a talent in India and do you see that shaping up from here on? I mean is it already big? Is it shaping up? We have no we have 50 people in India. >> I don't know how I'm off the I don't know how much more I should speak about it but I mean I can just say very generally um there was an article today >> in the print >> which talks about how um Indians you know historically if you were an Indian gamer or you wanted to be in the

gaming industry you had technical and creative skills uh you could do back-end work for big gaming companies in India or you had to go abroad to work in you know Ubisoft or someone in Montreal or somewhere there was no there was nothing you could do in India there was no one making triple play games for example now it's changing and we see more and more and more um Indians coming back from abroad actually and working with us in Pune and I think that's just going to grow basically you know the Chinese just so you know RMG has been banned in China for a long time

>> in India post RMG it's uh $1.5 billion dollars of the Indian gaming industry approximately >> less than 2 billion >> right >> in China it's 50 billion >> wow >> sobering thought >> but opportunity because that's where we're going to go. We have 1.2 billion people. We have the youngest audience in the world. It's youngest number of players. So >> that's the future and and I think we're at the vanguard of it. We're at the

start of it. We have amazing tailwinds. The government is also so >> pro everything now, >> right? >> Um >> and and and that's why I think more and more you're going to see people joining the gaming industry as a job, right? because it it is going to be a big employer as the industry grows in India for India and for the world >> but it was it's only in the recent past that people are doing it with a creative mindset you know for themselves I want

to build a game um I I know kids all the time you know like in the GDC that happened also there's so many every day there's a new company being started with 10 kids 12 kids x >> ex x ex x back office of a big company that was in India think we'll start our own game now because they see the potential the VC environment is getting better now. You know, you have Craftton in India, you have Luma in India. >> All that is changing now. So, I think it's a very interesting time and it it's an ecosystem, you know, you need you need the VCs, you need the market to

grow. Um, and you need the the people who are going to do it the human capital. So, it's all coming together right now. >> Specifically on our thing and the Pune studio has grown. We have a great guy Sedan Singh who's heading the uh the studio in Pune right now. a main studio was is in Paris but Pune is growing very fast and yes to the point that he made RNG real money gaming being banned uh has uh you know all those all those investments anyone who wants to get into gaming it has to go somewhere it'll come to this uh this area it's it's a perfect

time the I think the government has done a done a good job to encourage uh this sector >> any further policy changes that you think we should expect from the government on the in the game in the world of gaming >> I Modi G just said again last month >> uh or this month that he wants India to be a center I think for esports and gaming >> right >> so with that kind of top down you know blessing and impetus >> um yeah I I think there's a lot of

happening there building a fund as well see that it's a new industry so you need to do it properly >> institutes coming up lot in Maharashtra itself >> yes even the Maharashtra government is very pro a lot of state governments are pro it um just starting though it's just grassroots and I mean for me I'm I'm I I treat the government money as all our money so I'll be when I meet them I always tell them that setup systems >> it is all our money actually we are the taxpayers >> it is all our money but no I mean really

so it's like for me I'm very cognizant of I don't want it to just be spend randomly and then it's a you know scheme and then the whole thing is gone which happens very often all that all that so so so it's very important I think and I think doing that which is that uh when they're creating these funds and all that stuff they should have private sector as well in it >> you know to help them deploy it in the right way um and I hope that happens that's what I'm hoping for I hope that there's a long-term plan this is not a starting thing 50 billion we have to go

to this is like a literally forever plan cuz gaming is not going to >> station uh it's not something that will happen overnight the PLI schemes that they had you know have done very well in manufacturing we were nowhere in uh in phone manufacturing and now we're among the biggest. >> Yes. >> Right. So can that be done you know that kind of structure because that structure worked well >> right? >> Uh so that you back the right players who are willing to put their money heart

and soul into it because this is a long-term uh and also the talent pool. How do we train the people? Uh how do we make sure that distribution works well? So there are many things that the government can do but this as a sector can be so good >> for our for our industry. >> The top 10 games in India most of them are actually Chinese. Many don't know our money is actually going to China. >> Uh that's what I tell the government here. >> Yeah. >> You know

>> this 50 billion will be all all or Chinese or international money. That's what I tell them. I said we are going to go to 50 billion. Do you want 49? Do you want $50 billion to go to India or do you want it in India? >> Do you want it to remain here? In fact, uh that brings me to my last question before we get into rapid fire. Uh any advice to young founders who are trying to disrupt in the space of gaming specifically from India who would potentially look up to you uh for some kind of very interesting piece of advice that you can share with them.

>> I would think have your vision uh clear. >> Often uh startups mess up if the vision isn't clear. >> Mhm. Uh and yes at times if that vision isn't working and you have to pivot that's fair okay but I mean are you looking at making a high quality game which people uh will invest 40 50 hours in on which you'll make or you're trying to make a simple mobile phone game. This is a much more crowded market. Be clear on what your vision is. If you try and do you know something of everything that's when uh it's not just in gaming in any other thing. If you're not clear

about what your vision is, that's when things get uh get messed up. >> The sector is booming. It's a great time to be in this sector, but be clear about >> what you want to do. >> That's great advice. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think a lot of people would appreciate that. In fact, yeah, they sometimes appreciate it much later >> these kind of advices where they've had those hard falls. But yeah, that's very cool. >> I I would say like you said, hard falls. I would say along with that um I think

resilience is very important. I was just talking to someone else about that a few days ago and uh >> being an you you've asked about a start a gaming startup. So basically it's a startup basically anthrop entrepreneur the whole day every minute of the day are doors being slammed on your face. Bam bam bam bam. >> So if you don't inculcate resilience because you're going to have to be in the long term unfortunately there is no short term. you're going to have to play it 5 years plus for a 25 year old is like an eternity right

>> and I was 25 if someone said 2 years I like why the hell will it take 2 years to build a factory you know and I was doing factory but whatever that's then you realize when you get older that everything takes 5 10 years sometimes for a good project >> so just learning resilience is very important because you're going to you are going to fall all the time you have to fall that's just you will not learn unless you fall true >> sad fact but that's what it is so if you don't learn resilience >> buy books on res resil resilience read

your podcast, there's 5,000 things available. >> Yeah. >> Develop that inner Buddha, whatever you want to call it because you're going to need that. And I believe that's the only thing you really need because everything else is going to happen for anything. If you want to write a book, if you want to make a movie, literally for anything in your life, honestly. But if you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to get a job, like we said, a straightup job, you need a little but a little less. But the minute you want to be the solo chap

saying, I'm going to through my sheer will and determination >> make it happen. >> Make something in front of me come up. Make what is creation? It's like from it's like Shiva no from your will Brahma you created the universe we are from our will creating something basically that's what creation is >> so for that will you need resilience >> it's not about how many times you fall it's about how many times you get back up >> yeah right >> like my first book was was rejected by

publisher I self published in models of >> keep pushing don't that's fantastic thank you so much amazing perspectives very quick rapid fire >> awesome rapid fire >> uh rapid questions rapid answers >> we're Uh, one Indian myth or character you think the world is sleeping on. >> Uh, myth of Mahabharata. I think the world doesn't know enough about Mahabharata and it's the greatest is the archetype of all stories for me. >> All our epics actually. >> Amazing. >> I thought we'd answer each of us. That's

I didn't mean to answer for you. No, no, I don't mind. I just >> Yeah, I mean, okay. >> A game you both admire for storytelling. >> A game we both admire for um um a video game, you mean? >> Yeah. Um, I love Ghost of Sushima. It's too good. And Ghost of Y as well. Too good. Amazing storytelling. It's a story of a rapid fire saying, but it's a story of, you know, like a warrior who's lost everything, a samurai warrior in feudal Japan who's lost everything and has to come back up and find his way. Amazing. >> Blackmag

it's based on this book uh I think 500 600 year old book called the journey to the west. uh uh the monkey king and there are of course many historians who say actually that was a journey to India uh to the west of China is India and the monkey king is apparently inspired by the van lord Anuman's uh I mean and I I found the story fascinating I thought the uh for those who don't know the book >> or the various movies that have been made on it the game was a great introduction into that >> fantastic a film that feels like a game

or vice versa Uh, Edge of Tomorrow, that Tom Cruz movie. I think my favorite Tom Cruz movie because it has this loop repeat thing. It's based on a Japanese book. Have you seen it? >> Yeah. >> It's a fantastic movie. If you have you haven't seen it, everyone should see it. I'm sure you haven't seen it. But because you live, die, repeat. Live, die, repeat. So, you really feel like in a video game because you're >> in a video game, you get a chance to get up again. Here you get a chance to get

up again and grow and grow and grow. >> Nice. >> I would have thought of that thing too. Which was that movie that um which was actually like a video game. Yeah. >> Uh Fast Player one. >> Uh no. Uh yeah. Yeah. That's Steven Ready Player. Ready Player One. >> Ready Player One. Yeah. Yeah. That that was a video game. >> It's said in a video game. >> That's a movie in a video game. Yeah. >> A movie in a video game. Yeah. That was a good one.

>> Uh most overused mythology trope that you want to retire. >> Um I guess good and evil. That that that everything is so black and white. Um because nothing is black and white like in life. >> Very interesting. um that is just about the story. It's never just about the story. It's about going deeper and learning >> deeper messages. At least our traditions have always been that. >> Yeah. Subliminal and layers and layers. >> Always. And you can our epics you can

read them again and again. You'll learn more and more and more >> and depending on your stage in life, you learn something different. I'm sure >> you're passing through a difficult phase, you learn something different. You're relaxed and happy, you learn something different. Fantastic. If age of Bharat becomes a global phenomenon, what changes for Indian creators? >> When it becomes a global phenomenon, uh >> then yeah >> man, the sky is the limit. There's so many stories, man. >> We're a land of a billion stories. Um

and uh this is the final frontier. Gaming is where uh you know we can get so many of our thoughts, philosophies, uh stories out and impact the world and create opportunities for so many people in India. >> It'll definitely impact uh massively the gaming ecosystem in India. >> If we can do a blackmith H Wukong >> with a bat, it will >> every VC will come to India, >> right? And there'll be almost like a problem because you know how it is like everybody has a herd mentality like suddenly every VC in the world be like

got to get an Indian game got to get an Indian game and like there'll be 50 games made half good half bad but it's a it's a good problem to have >> but it will be that it will be a sea change in the way the world and India sees Indian gaming. >> Yeah >> very true. Uh >> because as of now nobody sees Indian world nor India. That's why I said the world like but >> you have a game coming from India really >> no one no one sees gaming doesn't exist tell us really wow okay

>> personally speaking I've been wanting to invest in a gaming company in in India for the last four years I mean the two areas that I've been wanting to look at one as a gaming company the other one was brain computer interface >> Dr. Craftton >> Craft. >> Bitcraft Bitcraft. >> Bitcraft. Okay. >> You know them. I'll introduce you to them >> for sure. >> They're very good. Smart guys. >> A creative risk that you that you're

taking that scares you a little bit or more >> in this game. >> Yeah. >> In this game, >> I think just a decision to get into it because it's it's it's completely out of the comfort zone of what I'm used to. I've done books, I've done documentaries, done podcasts, but those are all in the linear narrative space. This uh is an area that is completely foreign because I've never done creatives in this. And we've realized that gamers are really passionate, man.

I mean uh if they don't like it, I've seen other stuff. They start giving their threats and they're really really passionate, right? >> So, we have to deliver good quality. >> Yeah. It's an online forum, you know, unlike other things. It's Yeah, it's all there. Everybody's on Twitch ready to write anything. >> Ready to >> ready to vent. >> Yeah. And if they love it, man, they raise you to to the heights. Yeah. >> Uh one in one word each uh what what you want audiences to feel just after

playing the game. >> Um speechless. >> Yeah. >> Shattered. >> I saw you know there's this uh there's this guy called Ason Gold. He's America's biggest game influencer. Twitch on Twitch and all those things. that he loved our video game by the way. He saw the trailer. He >> saw the trailer. He loved it. >> He said, "Take my money," >> which was great for us. >> And um I saw him play Blackmith Wukong >> and end it and man the ending is insane.

It just goes on and on >> and just to see that he was shattered like he was like this, >> you know what I mean? And I was like, that's that's what I want because I it has to be such a journey where you >> you mean these these are he's a hardcore gamer. So hardcore gamers, they can they can destroy any boss. But the boss tough gamer, >> but yet for an okay gamer, you know, it's all that stuff, you know, you have to fine tune it. You have to have very carefully like shattered

>> in a good way, you know, like shattered in a good because it's like what am I going to do with my time after this >> and I just can't breathe, you know? I can't I can't believe I made it because the emotional thing is so much. That's what I want them to like >> and these gaming influencers, they swing on extremes, right? to the thing I saw with Asan Gold. He started his video, he said that one guy was after me to watch this trailer, our trailer, right? >> And then he just starts with it. If I don't like it, that guy is getting perma banned. Yeah.

>> This is the way gaming influences. Then he starts playing it. He starts playing the trailer and then he has his reaction video and after 5 seconds, he just pauses. He says, >> "I don't think you're getting banned. You're not getting banned. I like this." And then so and this that reaction was so cool, man. and he and he he builds it up more and more and more to >> and he has no he has no idea about India. He's he's like in in a way the target market, right? Because >> he's American. >> So what would be your one one word for

this in terms of a postplay reaction? >> I think just if someone just goes >> this or if they go like at the end of the trailer mat. >> Wow. Yeah. Actually for some random guy in like anywhere in the world. >> Oh yeah. Imagine imagine if a Texan, you know, white guy. >> Yeah, that would be very cool. >> Very cool actually. Very cool. Uh, what comes to your mind when you think of the about the word innovation? >> The word innovation. Wow. I don't know where the Latin thing comes from, innovation

means um trying to do something that hasn't been done before. But you know, honestly, when you say that word, it comes with other things also. What do they say? imitate, iterate, innovate. So I like that very much also because it's very hard to im >> every for every creative thing is a crime, you know, a theft or something like that. Every artist is a thief. >> So innovation cannot happen without other people before you. So I think understanding that understanding the process of innovation is very important as well.

>> Makes sense. Innovation is essentially adding or creating something that did not exist before. >> You're bringing something, you're manifesting something >> in a way, even if it's just an incremental improvement. Uh if you've done that, then you've added something to the world. In my mind, that's what innovation is. >> Thank you so much. Fantastic conversation. I think uh a lot of people including me are very excited about the game launch. We are rooting from the

sidelines, right? whatever way we can but we're very excited about it. If there's any last thing that you want to share with the consumers, please feel free to do so. >> Mak thank you so much once again for taking your time. Lovely lovely having this chat and I think this will really be very very meaningful because we covered a whole gamut of very wide variety of topics and you know it's fantastic learning for me as well. Thank you over a long period. >> Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah.